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Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=26651		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  Dobbsy [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:57 am ]
Post subject:  Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
There is a call to perhaps include Sanguinary Guard in the Blood Angels list for some extra character.

A reasonable proposal has been put forward for stats and costs

2 units 150pts
Move 30cm
3+ Armor Save
5+ FF
3+ CC
EA1 MW
Fearless
Frenzied

These units would replace 2 units in an existing formation, not add to it.

I would like to get a consensus on this idea from all players bearing any, even minor, interest in the list.

Personally, I don't think it will have a huge impact on the list given it's a minimal trade-out for other units but we obviously need to discuss it.

Pros - it adds extra character to the army
- it brings something interesting to the table for BA players particularly
- it may bring a tactical edge for the unit.
- it adds a neat modelling option

Cons - as it's a minimal addition it may not be worth it
- with the list being close to Approved it pushes the list back a bit (this is minor however as two other units will be seeing adjustments anyway).
-it's an addition for the sake of fluff to a degree.

Please feel free to comment :)

Thanks all.
Author:  mordoten [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
I think it's cool! Let them in!

And will gladly help approve list after Febuary!

Efit: just red GlynG comment in the blood Angels list. I agree that they should be their own unit and not an upgrade. But they should also always have the SC character. That would be their drawback to balance against their strength.
Author:  Xenocidal Maniac [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
First of all, thanks so much for putting my idea to a vote like this! Super cool! :)

I also agree with Glyn that SG deserve their own formation. Whether that's 4 or 6 stands, I'm not sure. Somehow, 4 "feels" more appropriate to me, but 6 would make sense, too. I also agree that the SC would be a mandatory upgrade. As I stated in the BA thread, it's not only canonical (Dante leading the Sanguinary Guard) but it's the very last place I would want my SC to be, hence would be a good balancer.

I would think a unit of six with the SC would be in the 450 point, maybe even 500 point range.

But, whatever form they take if they make it to the list, I'll be pretty stoked! Thanks!
Author:  Dobbsy [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
mordoten wrote:
I think it's cool! Let them in!

And will gladly help approve list after Febuary!

Efit: just red GlynG comment in the blood Angels list. I agree that they should be their own unit and not an upgrade. But they should also always have the SC character. That would be their drawback to balance against their strength.


OK that's possible too. Let's see what people think about it ;)
Author:  kyussinchains [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
I have no problem with the proposed stats, and they should probably be their own formation

however, my grognard side agrees with this:

dobbsy wrote:
"-it's an addition for the sake of fluff to a degree"


and wonders whether they should be in the list at all... if you'd painstakingly converted or sculpted your own models, then they would work perfectly well as death company or even terminator proxies

After all, we don't give any other chapters any special troops to represent the sternguard or vanguard guys, or even the 1st company vets in power armour...

just my opinion of course :)
Author:  Xenocidal Maniac [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
I disagree that they are an addition for the sake of fluff. Or - perhaps it's more accurate to say that they are no more an addition for the sake of fluff than anything else in the game. They are a completely different troop type not found anywhere else in the list nor in any other army. As discussed on the Blood Angel thread, they are basically flying light terminators. In 40k, there is nothing else in the game with the combination of -

Jump packs
2+ armor save
Master crafted Power Weapons

The way to think of them is fast moving terminators that are vulnerable to MW. I honestly don't think they are covered by any other unit type. The DC's invuln save is not the same as a 3+ save. Nor is the 3+ save the same as the Terminator's 4+ RA save.

Furthermore, having Sanguinary Guard count as terminators would be inappropriate because the terminator 3+ FF and Assault Cannons don't make any sense for SG.

I just feel like if you're going to include Thunderhawk Transporters, Stormravens, and Baal Predators (all of which are similar but different to other units in the list), you may as well include Sanguinary Guard.

And, come on - how cool will it be to field your brand new, lovingly converted Sanguinary Guard models? :)
Author:  kyussinchains [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
I'm not opposed to them being included, and personally I would always encourage you to use your favourite minis in a game, we just have a very useful 'counts as' rule which would enable that ;)

I'm just not sure if they're a fluff inclusion or whether they really bring something new to the list (I'm currently having the same cognitive dissonance with my own Imperial fists list and whether I include centurions or not....)

if they did make it in, that is 100% fine with me of course, and not a grudging acceptance either :D
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
I would say that their stats are so similar to the Death Company as to be essentially interchangeable.

Is there nothing in their 40k rules that would make them sit apart a little more?
Author:  Dobbsy [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
Evil and Chaos wrote:
I would say that their stats are so similar to the Death Company as to be essentially interchangeable.

This is pretty accurate apart for the MW stat of course and given you only get one Death Company in the list you wouldn't have the SG formation along side it.

Evil and Chaos wrote:
Is there nothing in their 40k rules that would make them sit apart a little more?


Any inclusion of MW to a Marine list is a big plus, particularly if it's multiple units in one formation that can air assault with a 15cm deployment from the aircraft.

By far the biggest argument to the negative for me is if we include these guys, where does it stop with fluff-based veteran types for other lists? I'm not keen on hearing [whiney voice]"Oh, but the BA have Sanguinary Guard..."[/whiney voice off] every time someone wants to adjust/create a list.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
Quite. There are far more Sternguard & Vanguard in a typical Space Marine Chapter than there are Sanguinary Guard in the Blood Angels.
Author:  pati [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
I think the best solution is to use them as "chapter specific" temrinators! e.g. 4+ RA, thick Rear Armour, 3+ FF/CC. +1ea MW in CC.

BUT instead ot he assault cannons and teleport, they can just have jump packs & frenzy. Thats all. BA "temrinator" formation, but with jump packs! They should be transported in Thawk, dropship, etc -but not in ground vehicles.

Can be a 0-1 450p formation, 4 stands, inc. Supreme commander. +150p 2 extra stands, for a better survivability. with 600p +w a possible Thawk 800p -you will see them as a BTS, and a rare choice -only presented in LARGE scale games, as in "real" life.

any ideas about this? :)
Author:  Xenocidal Maniac [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
Dobbsy wrote:
By far the biggest argument to the negative for me is if we include these guys, where does it stop with fluff-based veteran types for other lists? I'm not keen on hearing [whiney voice]"Oh, but the BA have Sanguinary Guard..."[/whiney voice off] every time someone wants to adjust/create a list.


I totally understand that. I guess the point I am trying to make is that SG are not just a veteran type unit. They have vastly different arms and armament. Enough so that I think they warrant a unique entry in the list. In 40k, what do Sternguard and Vanguard vets have that their "regular" counterparts don't? Almost nothing. Sternguard have a couple different ammo types and slightly better Ld. Vanguard can do that heroic intervention thing. It's not as if they are all armed with power weapons and wearing artificer armor.

The main thing about SG is that mobility with the 2+ save. Nothing else in the game has that. Especially now that 2+ has become much more robust in 40k with power swords and the like being reduced to only AP3. Much tougher to crack 2+ armor now.

Anyway, I'm cool either way :) It's hard to convey tone of voice over the internet. Just know I am not nearly as frenzied behind my computer monitor as it may sound in my impassioned pleas! :) I'm not a BA fanboy or anything like that, and on the whole am inclined to agree that caution should be exercised in including new units. However I truly feel that SG are unique and fill a role not covered by anything else.
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard? Views plz gents
Dobbsy wrote:
By far the biggest argument to the negative for me is if we include these guys, where does it stop with fluff-based veteran types for other lists? I'm not keen on hearing [whiney voice]"Oh, but the BA have Sanguinary Guard..."[/whiney voice off] every time someone wants to adjust/create a list.


This is enough for me to say no.
If it's going to be included it would need to be a replacement for the SC character upgrade and instead be a unit with SC ability and stat'd with the agreed way.
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