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The Vindicator - Scotty No Friends
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=21118		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  Dobbsy [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  The Vindicator - Scotty No Friends
Proposal 1: Drop price to 225 for a formation

Proposal 2(a bit more out of left field): +5cm movement

Prop 2 is obviously an alternative to a price drop - I figured I'd like to offer folks against price changes an optional idea.

Is the Vindicator realistically that slow? I realise the weight of the vehicle is supposed to make it more ponderous etc but given the highly abstract time and distance scales in Epic I could easily see it getting a bit of a speed boost to make it a little more attractive for the current points. I realise you could probably argue that about the Land Raider too but I'm not keen on making this idea a wide-spectrum idea. It may not be highly accurate but just something to help the Vindicator along.

Anyway, looking forward to your opinions.

Thanks lads.
Author:  SpeakerToMachines [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Vindicator - Scotty No Friends
Dobbsy wrote:
Proposal 2(a bit more out of left field): +5cm movement


I like this; It would make it an attractive upgrade to Tacticals in Rhinos.
Author:  frogbear [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Vindicator - Scotty No Friends
On the above 2 options, then Proposal 1.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Vindicator - Scotty No Friends
Any reasoning FB?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Vindicator - Scotty No Friends
+5cm movement from what base speed?
Author:  Dobbsy [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Vindicator - Scotty No Friends
25cm is their current speed correct? So up to 30cm in line with all the rhino hulls
Author:  Carrington [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Vindicator - Scotty No Friends
Dobbsy wrote:
25cm is their current speed correct? So up to 30cm in line with all the rhino hulls


So that Vindicator is to Rhino as Hellhound is to Chimera? Doesn't sound like a bad idea, especially given that SMs are supposed to be fast-moving.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Vindicator - Scotty No Friends
Imperial Armour 2 gives the following Off-Road Speeds:

Rhino 55 km/h
Predator 50 km/h
Razorback 55 km/h
Whirlwind 50 km/h
Vindicator 48 km/h
Damocles 55 km/h
Land Raider 48 km/h
Land Raider Crusader 41 km/h
Land Raider Helios 48 km/h
Land Raider Prometheus 48 km/h
Author:  Carrington [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Vindicator - Scotty No Friends
BlackLegion wrote:
Imperial Armour 2 gives the following Off-Road Speeds:

Rhino 55 km/h
Predator 50 km/h
Razorback 55 km/h
Whirlwind 50 km/h
Vindicator 48 km/h
Damocles 55 km/h
Land Raider 48 km/h
Land Raider Crusader 41 km/h
Land Raider Helios 48 km/h
Land Raider Prometheus 48 km/h


"This is true, but it is also irrelevant."

We also know the walking speed of PBI as well: 5-12 km/h.

The problem being that we know neither Epic's ground scale nor epic's time scale is amenable to a straight conversion.
Indeed, somewhere around this scale speed calculations begin to reflect C3I and targeting issues as much as ground speed -- which is, perhaps, part of the reason that Rhinos travel at only twice the speed of a walking ork or IG trooper.

e.g. I don't imagine Valkyries or Vultures fly at an airspeed no more than 65 kmph.

Given the above one thing we might imagine is that ponderous formations are particularly bad in the context of an SM army built to be high quality, high mobility, low quantity.

Yours may be an argument for bumping LR speeds up to 30 as well.
Author:  Dave [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Vindicator - Scotty No Friends
BL beat me to it, but here's both the on/offroad speeds for comparison between all the SM tanks.

Rhino 70/55
Destructor 68/50
Annihilator 68/50
Baal 68/50
Razorback 70/55
Whirlwind 68/50
Vindicator 64/48
Land Raider 55/48
Crusader 50/41
Helios 55/48
Prometheus 55/48

I'd go for the price drop before upping the speed. 5-10cm of extra move isn't going to make then any less specialized then they already are nor make much of a difference during an activation when shooting.
Author:  GlynG [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Vindicator - Scotty No Friends
Dobbsy wrote:
Is the Vindicator realistically that slow? I realise the weight of the vehicle is supposed to make it more ponderous etc but given the highly abstract time and distance scales in Epic I could easily see it getting a bit of a speed boost to make it a little more attractive for the current points.

Yes and no really. Do you have the Forge World Imperial Armour 2: Space Marines book Dobbsy? It’s a great resource for SM and as the army champion I would recommend having a read. It can be found online and I didn’t actually pay for my pdf copy if you get my drift (though I have physically bought some of their books and may eventually buy it).

It has Adeptus Mechanicus Technical Specification scrolls for all SM vehicles which include on and off road speeds and weights. Going by that the Vindicator is slower, but not by all that much:

Rhino: Max Speed On Road 70KPH, Max Speed Off Road 55KPH Weight 30 Tonnes
Razorback: Max Speed On Road 70KPH, Max Speed Off Road 55KPH Weight 31.5 Tonnes
Predator: Max Speed On Road 68KPH, Max Speed Off Road 50KPH Weight 44 Tonnes
Whirlwind: Max Speed On Road 68KPH, Max Speed Off Road 50KPH Weight 33 Tonnes
Vindicator: Max Speed On Road 64KPH, Max Speed Off Road 48KPH Weight 42 Tonnes
Land Raider: Max Speed On Road 55KPH, Max Speed Off Road 48KPH Weight 72 Tonnes

All the Rhino based vehicles are powered by the same thing a ‘Quad MkII Adaptable Thermic Combustor Reactor’.

Go more by what works best in the game, than following that too slavishly, but it might give you some idea what the background says. The Land Raider is considerably slower again and I definitely would not suggest that be changed.

I could be fine with either option, though have a slight preference towards fixing it by cost as the simpler route.

I proposed elsewhere in the threads that it could be a good idea to also make the Vindicator upgrade either +40 (with Typhoons +10 and Tactical's Predator Destructor upgrade at +50) or a multi-buy discount with +50 for 1 or 2 for +75 (all this assumes the speed stays the same). The upgrade at 50 is rarely being taken and is probably a bit overpriced.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Vindicator - Scotty No Friends
I like 25cm with walker feels right for speed to me too, so I'd go with the points reduction. Possibly for upgrades too.
Author:  Carrington [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Vindicator - Scotty No Friends
Guys. Infantry walks 15cm-45cm per turn in this game... and this is including 'hurry up and wait' as well as 'where the hell is Jones?'. Heavy weapons Schlep at 10cm.

If you wanted to use the PBI as a baseline, you could kick the Rhino's movement up to 105cm... and then some to reflect the fact that one driver responds to radio orders a lot faster than five grunts. The LR's movement would be 80+cm or thereabouts.

Imperial Armor may be a great reference, but it's neither here nor there for the situations Epic purports to simulate....

Circvs Marinicus, maybe.... but not epic.



Evil and Chaos wrote:
I like 25cm with walker feels right for speed to me too, so I'd go with the points reduction. Possibly for upgrades too.


In all seriousness, this argument makes much more sense to me, though I'd feel that 'mud-marines' would tend to prize speed and reaction... so the issue of keeping fast and slow vehicles together should be much less notable than, e.g. in an Imp. Gd. mech army.

That said, if we are to pay close attention to these stats, 'walker' is not necessarily justified: by the stats, the Vindicator takes a greater performance hit from going offroad than does the the Rhino.

On the other hand, contra GlynG's point, the Land Raider is not particularly slower than the Vindicator (or the Rhino) offroad. This is, arguably, the statistic that counts.

All of which goes to suggest that -- as GlynG and others note -- these stats aren't really that useful.
Author:  Dave [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Vindicator - Scotty No Friends
Don't forget that distance isn't linear in EA, it's logarithmic (just ignore the amazing growing/shrinking terrain pieces if you please...). I'll agree that you can hold tight and fast to these "real-world" fluff numbers but they're something to go by atleast.
Author:  Carrington [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Vindicator - Scotty No Friends
Dave wrote:
Don't forget that distance isn't linear in EA, it's logarithmic (just ignore the amazing growing/shrinking terrain pieces if you please...). I'll agree that you can hold tight and fast to these "real-world" fluff numbers but they're something to go by atleast.


:-). It's a good point, though I'm skeptical of the mathematical accuracy implied by 'logarithmic.'

This especially because log(48) and log(55) would tend to be squished together: taken literally, the Vindicator's speed -- and the Land Raider's -- should be 28. And infantry's speed might be up to 21.
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