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| The Land Raider - formation price drop http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=21108 |
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| Author: | Dobbsy [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | The Land Raider - formation price drop |
The proposal is: Drop to 300 points for the formation. The main reason for this proposal is to attempt to resurrect it as a viable unit type taken at tournies in place of, perhaps, the Warhound. Note: Please take into consideration that other unit types in the list are being considered for price changes - from previous chat in the "New Adeptus Astartes and you" thread here. Thanks all. 
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop |
Approve. Even a cursory comparison with the warhound says 300pts is a good place to test the formation at. 350pts has been tried for several years and has proven still too expensive. |
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| Author: | Matt A [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop |
At 300 points I would actually consider taking them. |
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| Author: | Jaggedtoothgrin [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop |
yeah, i could see myself using them at 300 (well, i've used them at the old price, i just didnt consider it a wise investment) but i still think they should have some way of transporting units, as they are at heart, a transport tank. perhaps a rule that they can pick up troops like war engines, i rarely like to load troops into war engine transports to begin with, because it's slower than normal transports, so i think that'd balance out nicely. i'd be willing to pay 325 for that as an option for sure. |
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| Author: | GlynG [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop |
I do think the Land Raider formation could so with a points drop. 300 is perhaps possible, but I really think that’s too low and good for it - 325 sounds right for it and better to test first rather a big jump in one go. The Warhound is IMO worth 300+ (even with the damage critical) and not a marine unit. A better comparison would be to Predator Annihilators. Predators are the SMs main battle tank and the Ultramarines (who we could assume to be typical) have 25 Predators (of both types) but only 12 Land Raiders (of all types). If Predators were (hopefully) to be fixed by adopting the Epic-UK solution of 225 Destructors +25 per pair of Annihilators then I would likely take 1-2+ formations in most of my SM lists (unless taking a specifically heavy air or drop list for the battle). With Land Raiders at 300 I feel I’d likely take few to no Predators and take them instead. You should consider potential Land Raider spam too. Imagine facing a 3k list with 1 x BTS Land Raider formation with an extra Vindicator and Hunter, 8 other Land Raider formations and 1 Thunderbolt formation (with 25 points left over). That’s 10 activations and 36 Land Raiders and could be a nasty proposition. Considering how common the original plastic Land Raiders are there are probably people who could field that. That’s just an extreme example, others lists with large amounts of Land Raiders but more formations and Scouts could do better. |
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| Author: | Simulated Knave [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop |
I could field that easily. I think 325's likely better than 300. Gradual shifts, I think - this is an ostensibly balanced primary list. |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop |
While IMHO it is not necessary, I could possibly be pursuaded to consider a 25 point reduction. However, doing this means I now get a "free" Razorback to add somewhere else - is this really necessary?! (dropping 50 points give me a "free" chaplain - yummy - lets see what else can be done to boost the list  )
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| Author: | GlynG [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop |
Ginger wrote: doing this means I now get a "free" Razorback to add somewhere else - is this really necessary?! (dropping 50 points give me a "free" chaplain - yummy - lets see what else can be done to boost the list )Obviously not necessarily, as other units are under discussion for points rises. |
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| Author: | Signal [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop |
@Ginger: Your criticism is only valid if you're already taking Land Raiders regularly. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop |
Signal wrote: @Ginger: Your criticism is only valid if you're already taking Land Raiders regularly. QFT. You might as well label the old points drop of 400 to 350 points as giving you a free chaplain... It's not true because Boone actually won games when taking 400pt land raider formations. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop |
I'd stick with a 25 point shift. With respect to the LR v Warhound debate, I think the LRs are quite a bit tougher. Yes, it's a similar number of shots to kill the formation. However, it only takes 3BMs to break a Warhound formation. The LRs will degrade as they take hits, but they are very good at keeping an activation on the board. That said, I haven't taken an LR formation in a very long time. I've used them extensively in the lists that allow them as upgrades (Salamanders, for instance) and found them easily worth their price. |
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| Author: | Dave [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop |
Baby steps Bob, baby steps... I'd suggest trying 325 first. I'd compare them to Annihilators before a Warhound. I think a formation of 4 is worth more than 300 compared to the Annihilator's 275. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop |
Quote: I'd suggest trying 325 first. I'd compare them to Annihilators before a Warhound. I think a formation of 4 is worth more than 300 compared to the Annihilator's 275. Annihilators aren't really worth 275pts though IMO they're worth more like 250. |
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| Author: | carlisimo109 [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop |
No one else wants to give them unrestricted transport capacity? I'd pay more than 300 for that. |
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| Author: | Angel_of_Caliban [ Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop |
carlisimo109 wrote: No one else wants to give them unrestricted transport capacity? I'd pay more than 300 for that. I'd say they would be worth 350 if they had WE Transport rules.... |
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