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| Visions of Superhumans http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=19581 |
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| Author: | Simulated Knave [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Visions of Superhumans |
Alright. How do people see Space Marines in Epic? How should Space Marines be fighting on the Epic battlefield? What sort of units should be common? What should be rare? What about Allies? What strategies should lead to success with a Space Marine army? And not in terms of the current list, I might add. Pretend there is no Epic SM list. At least for the first bit. If you want to talk about it at the end, that's your business, but the point here is not "how can we fix the SM list/why shouldn't we fix the SM list". It's "what do people want from the SM list". |
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| Author: | GlynG [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Visions of Superhumans |
Personally I think all the current lists represent marines poorly from how they should be in a number of areas and I've had a better version in mind for a while now, which I plan to write up and post in the not too distant future (next week maybe). |
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| Author: | Simulated Knave [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Visions of Superhumans |
Cool. Not exactly what I asked, though.  The point here isn't to talk about what's wrong with the current list(s). That always ends up bogged down in "no, it represents them fine". I want to know what people are looking for from the list in general. If there are notable cleavages along those lines, then it might be worth trying to figure out what to do. |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Visions of Superhumans |
OK. Here we go SM coming onto a planet Attack force would see drop pods and masses of troops and dreads. The kind of scene we saw in the Istvaan battles. Massed Tacticals with specialised troops in other areas (assault and terminators). Only after the initial assault we would see the Transports arrive. SM attacking from on the planet (really depends on the chapter, however in general) I would expect Tacticals as the staple, with transports, backed up with Vindicators that actually did something. Drednoughts perhaps. Devastators, assault, land speeders and scouts would also be apparent. If on an Imperial World, or an an expedition, maybe the support of the Imperials, however this is more situation based rather than a general rule. Whilst we have some stories of Marines working with allies, I think the truth of the matter is Marines work alone and to their own agenda. The only real allies to a Marine force are another Marine force, and even then it is only grudgingly. So Tacticals, Devastators, Tacticals, Land Raiders, Predators and Vindicators. Then add in some more tacticals, a touch of assault, scouts and a Thunderhawk or two, and you almost have the formula for what I see as a Marine force. Top that with a sprinkling of Terminators and you have it. |
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| Author: | Simulated Knave [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Visions of Superhumans |
Quote: How do people see Space Marines in Epic? This is tricky. I see Space Marines in Epic as a force that should be disproportionately capable for their size. Their small numbers should be balanced by excellent maneuverability and the ability to handle significantly larger numbers of enemies if they're cautious. Space Marine infantry should be tough and reliable. Space Marine vehicles should be excellent generalists. The Land Raider should be the toughest vehicle in the game by a hefty margin, excepting the Monolith. Space Marine air support should be capable of transport, air support, or bombing - as necessary. Quote: How should Space Marines be fighting on the Epic battlefield? Maneuver and concentrated firepower. Durable Eldar isn't quite right, but isn't quite wrong, either. Basically less numerous, tougher, slightly slower Eldar. Avoidance and concentrated strikes that overwhelm the enemy locally. Except where the Eldar run away, the Marines stomp everything flat then walk away. Quote: What sort of units should be common? The basis of any Space Marine army should, IMO, be the Battle Company. 60 Tacticals, 20 Assaults (which can be Bikes or Land Speeders as well). This should be supplemented by elements from other companies - be that other Battle Companies, the reserves, or the 1st and 10th. However, the Battle Company should be the focus. If there's no Battle Company, something's a little off. Quote: What should be rare? Things like Terminators and Scouts should be supplements to the existing forces. Land Raiders should be relatively uncommon relative to other vehicles. Predators should be the backbone of a Marine armored presence on the table. Quote: What about Allies? Allies should be distinctly optional for Marines (and also a little less common than in other armies). Marines are the Imperium's rapid-response force. All too often, they don't have the luxury of Allies. And when they do, their independence (and unique tactics) will mean that they have relatively few. Marines should be able to function well without Allies - because they'll often need to. This is tricky, since there are some areas where Marines are intentionally weak in the background. However, it would seem reasonable that they should either have Marine ways of shoring up those weaknesses or have those weaknesses preserved, rather than being able to consistently supplement them with Allies. Quote: What strategies should lead to success with a Space Marine army? I'm not sure. I'd say Space Marines should be a balance between Drop Podding, Thunderhawking and Ground. Any of the three options should be equally capable on its own, though it need not be quite so capable as one or more of them together. All should be able to perform effectively without recourse to Allies. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Visions of Superhumans |
The problem with this is that Marines according to the background would be nearly unplayable in the same set of rules that IG troops work under. The joke 40K "Hollywood Marines" stats that fit the 40K background are a good example of that (heightened stats across the board, multiple wounds, invulnerable saves, 100 points per model or something). Generic Tacticals would be 4+RA, twice the current firepower, assault monsters. That means it's basically impossible to build a marine force like it really should be according to the background. The best you can do is make them relatively elite and nod towards the uber-abilities they are supposed to have. So, we can discuss it in general terms in order to suss out an overall direction for the army list(s). However, we're not going to get anything that really fits the fiction and still have a playable game. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Visions of Superhumans |
QFT for what Nealhunt said. If you want to play 100% true background Marines, the first step would be in replacing those squads of 5 men with units consisting of a single Marine... and then you give that Marine 4+ RA.
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| Author: | zombocom [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Visions of Superhumans |
Also, you'd have to make those individual marines AV or even WE, as there's no way a puny heavy bolter could take down a background-style space marine. Basically, the background is largely nonsense and bears little resemblance to their abilities in any game (other than perhaps Inquisitor). |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Visions of Superhumans |
Nah, a heavy bolter can take one down, they're still infantry. It's just that the Terminators would have RA2+ with a special 4+ invulnerable save on top. :-P |
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| Author: | Mephiston [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Visions of Superhumans |
Even in Inquisitor they tried to balance the Space Marine by modeling him without a helmet. Head shots at least did damage them! |
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| Author: | dptdexys [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Visions of Superhumans |
nealhunt wrote: Generic Tacticals would be 4+RA, twice the current firepower, assault monsters. So basically they'd be the Terminators we have now in Epic A. |
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| Author: | Athmospheric [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Visions of Superhumans |
I still remember vividly that background text with a wolf guard alive, kicking and yelling at his men (for slacking around) just after being stomped on by a warlord Titan. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Visions of Superhumans |
dptdexys wrote: nealhunt wrote: Generic Tacticals would be 4+RA, twice the current firepower, assault monsters. So basically they'd be the Terminators we have now in Epic A. Except they'd be 1 model on a base, and have at least 2x FF attacks on a 3+. 
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| Author: | Athmospheric [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Visions of Superhumans |
And they would be fearless and inspiring to any guard model. |
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| Author: | Simulated Knave [ Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Visions of Superhumans |
None of those questions inherently require that anything about current statistics of Marine units change. They're questions about how the list should work, what should be common, what shouldn't, what strategies should work, how the army should feel. Don't use questions that weren't asked to dodge ones that were. How do you think the SM army should work in Epic? |
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