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Imperial Fists Development
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Author:  frogbear [ Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Imperial Fists Development
Updated List v0.2 as of 9th October 2010 on the link below

========================================

Hi All

I have been pretty busy but decided to quickly put something together to get discussion moving along.

Some points:
1. I have yet to go through the thread again and look at all the ideas. This draft was just to get all the things out of my head - so yes, there is plenty of discussion to be had
2. I have not looked at other Marine lists. If the list starts to look similar, please let me know
3. I have tried to divorce the whole idea of the vanilla Marine list and have this play differently. Please let me know if it achieves this
4. Missing are Land Speeders and Bikes for now. They are an easy addition - just throwing it out there without them for now
5. The list is not meant to represent all that the Imperial Fists are. We have a Marine list for that. What this endeavours to do is show a particular campaign where the IF work with what they have. Remember the goal is to have the IF play a different style of battle to Vanilla Marines
6. Is this the right direction for the Imperial Fists, or do people want to go the way of the White Scars with the same list with minor changes?
7. Points will be wrong for the Thunderhawk Bomber and probably the Scouts - these were just 'placement holders' that will be reviewed when list design finds a stable direction

Please be gentle. :) I have been quite busy but as you will all know, I am fully dedicated to getting done what I get started - with everyone's help of course :P


Side Note: For those interested in the Imperial Fists vs Iron Warriors supplement, stay tuned. We will get the lists started and then call for contributions.

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Author:  frogbear [ Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists Development
Just read the other thread again and consolidating ideas here for consideration:

- Land Raider Crusaders
- Whirlwinds as an upgrade choice
- Rename Terminators to Titanhammer Terminators
- Space Ships and Drop Pods - should they be in the list? It allows for attacking Siege options at the moment
- Thunderfire add-ons
- Typhoon Inclusion ?
- Scouts - Does the list need them and do they do anything for the list?
- Foot-slogging assault Marines with transports
- Transport restrictions - necessary?
- Bunkers - IF special rule - necessary?

That looks like all of them.

Note about Fortified positions: Fortified positions are set up after Objectives, but before Spacecraft and Garrisons are deployed.
Fortified positions count as having a move of zero and may therefore ‘garrison’. Once set up fortified positions may be used by any unit, not just the units they were purchased for.

This allows Marines to have quite a strong frontage garrisoning from the start of a battle. So I just need to be wary of any Special rule as it may be quite nasty. Hence my feeling is for no special rules till the list is done and then a decision could be made as to whether it is necessary.

That's it for now.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists Development
What is a "Sentry Support Weapon" ?
A Tarantula?

Why no Warlord Titan?
Wouldn't the Imperial Fists bring the heaviest possible weapons to bear when Siegebreaking?

Why so min-maxable on the Whirlwinds?
Why not set them at a pre-set size so as to avoid such list-hammer shennanigans?
Author:  Dobbsy [ Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists Development
So 150 points for the SC?

Perhaps Terminators are touch over priced because they have no shooting stats

Maybe Tacticals should be up around 275 as rhinos are approx. 10 points each

I would have liked to see the teleport bunker idea with scouts for the crossfire idea but oh well :)

Kinda agree with E&C make the whirlies 4 or 8 (or 4 or 6) not somewhere in between. Also on the warlord, if anything drop the Warhounds as they're a scout class titan so I wouldn't see them as part of a defensive line.

Also is the list a defence list or assault and defence list? I'm not sure if it's supposed to be a siege breaker force too....
Author:  frogbear [ Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists Development
Evil and Chaos wrote:
What is a "Sentry Support Weapon" ? A Tarantula?


Yes. Something in that format. Just throwing it out there for now rather than worrying about the stats. The Seige book has some good options I think.

Quote:
Why no Warlord Titan? Wouldn't the Imperial Fists bring the heaviest possible weapons to bear when Siegebreaking?


It did not really occur to me that it was missing :) I am used to seeing 3 War Engine slots. That's an easy addition

Quote:
Why so min-maxable on the Whirlwinds? Why not set them at a pre-set size so as to avoid such list-hammer shennanigans?


I thought about this. The 75 points was just easier at the time I guess. Is such a thing a real issue? If I take 5 and change one to a hunter, then effectively I have what Marines have. It's an easy fix, just wondering if it is really necessary however. I guess I have not had the tourney experience to see what that makes people cringe with such a selection at 75 points a pop. Is it really that bad?

Not being difficult - I honestly do not see it.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists Development
Quote:
Is it really that bad?

It's poor list design in principle, IMO, and if carried too far invariably results in daft min/maxing.

Plus, whilst a formation of 4 Whirlwinds is worth 300pts, a formation of 8 Whirlwinds is not going to be worth 600pts.

Quote:
- Land Raider Crusaders

Maybe.

Quote:
- Whirlwinds as an upgrade choice

This sounds cool.

Quote:
- Rename Terminators to Titanhammer Terminators

Agreed.

Quote:
- Space Ships and Drop Pods - should they be in the list? It allows for attacking Siege options at the moment

I'd say only allow the Battle Barge. When drop podding on a Siege line, I reckon you'd either go all the way, or not bother...

Quote:
- Thunderfire add-ons

Thunderfire Cannons are a definite nessesity for the Imperial Fists.
Quote:
- Typhoon Inclusion ?

Maybe. My thought is that full formations of them could be used as a light "bombardment" formation, staying at 45cm range but hitting with their AP3+ attacks.
Quote:
- Scouts - Does the list need them and do they do anything for the list?

Remove them, IMO.
Quote:
- Foot-slogging assault Marines with transports

That would be cool.
Author:  frogbear [ Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists Development
Dobbsy wrote:
So 150 points for the SC?


That is what Marines pay in a list judging by the NetEA doc. Should this be different? Are not all Marine lists the same in this respect?

Quote:
Perhaps Terminators are touch over priced because they have no shooting stats


I have to look at these, however a Terminator's points is not in their shooting. These have a 2+CC and an INV Save to boot. Seeing their only role is to Teleport and Assault on a SR5+, one has to be careful at pricing them too low. Shooting attacks do not factor in this case.

Quote:
Maybe Tacticals should be up around 275 as rhinos are approx. 10 points each


Nope. Chaos Rhinos are 10 points each. Take away the Thunderhawk and the 'foot-sloggers' are priced at about 250 points. Give them the Rhinos and you have them back at 275 points without Thunderhawk capacity. Use the drop element and you have their full price back again. It all works out.

Quote:
I would have liked to see the teleport bunker idea with scouts for the crossfire idea but oh well :)


I have to balance them against other lists as well. If they are a siege defender force, the Trenches work fine for now. They are not a guerilla force that would make use of 'appearing' traps of crossfire which may be more useful to a scout dedicated force IMO. Also, the list should gain it's strength through the list design itself rather than special rules. Special rules can be added later to give the list a flavour if that is still missing.

Quote:
Also is the list a defence list or assault and defence list? I'm not sure if it's supposed to be a siege breaker force too....


It's out there for review. At present (which can easily change) it has elements of both an attack and defence for two reasons:

1. to capture the idea that neal had for the list to be both attack and defence
2. Sometimes the best defence is a surgical strike on the offence to secure your position
Author:  frogbear [ Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists Development
Quote:
Plus, whilst a formation of 4 Whirlwinds is worth 300pts, a formation of 8 Whirlwinds is not going to be worth 600pts.


I did tackle this question with Morgan

My initial plan was something like this:

4x Whirlwinds - 300 points
6x Whirwinds - 425 points
8x Whirlwinds - 525 or 550 points

Then there was Zombos idea:

4x Whirlwinds - 300 points
8x Whirlwinds - ? points (probably 525 or 550 points)

Is the 4-6-8 still a bad design? The jump from 300 to 550 is quite a large investment would you not agree?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists Development
frogbear wrote:
Dobbsy wrote:
So 150 points for the SC?


That is what Marines pay in a list judging by the NetEA doc. Should this be different? Are not all Marine lists the same in this respect?

Codex Marine lists pay 100pts for their SC's.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists Development
Quote:
Is the 4-6-8 still a bad design? The jump from 300 to 550 is quite a large investment would you not agree?


I'd question what the 6 unit formation provides. As far as I can see, what it provides is a cut-price second Hunter (4/2 would probably be the most commonly selected mix by my eye, as 5BP is a pretty useless upgrade from 4BP, and whilst 6BP does give an extra BM a second (Cheap) AA attack is probably worth more to the Marines).

I'd go with 4 or 8. Or even just 8.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists Development
Scouts - an essentially part of any siege. For sallies out or in especially.

Email - yours doesn't work frogbear, so no pack of IF stuff for you (or am I writing it wrong?). Its out of date I can't find the newer one, but the pics alone are handy.

Whirlwinds - Ironically far better at defence. Minimal advantage having 6 over 4. The big jump is to 7. Something like 300 for 4, 550 for 8 could be something. However I think its impossible to price it so 8 is a fair choice to 4 considering the latter is more firepower and activations, at least to the point that the 8 is so tough it is a better choice, even if it is the BTS. In other words the tipping point is such that its too hard to point for - potentially!

Hunters - I'd allow 0-2 allowed to be added. Or maybe introduce a second AA vehicle from FW if cutting air assets. Shorter range (45cm), higher rate of fire (2xAA5+). Mix in with AA tarantula (either 30cm or 45cm from the control tarantula) and you can have a layed defence so beloved by the navy.

Prob have a siegeworks section - trenches, mine fields (DT tests for anything passing over), bunkers, tarantuala point defence formations, maybe go wild and include some tunnelers to represent the old specialist gear. Perhaps throw in a techmarine character to represent the level of engineering support all this needs - something like MWCC, MW FF, gives all units in formation if added to taratulas/vehicles an invulnerable save?

Oh and siege orientated Titans. The triple rocket launcher reaver maybe for defence and a fortification smashing Warlord for attack?
Author:  frogbear [ Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists Development
TRC: You have my email for the joint order :) Doesn't work Hmph!

Quote:
Codex Marine lists pay 100pts for their SC's.


Look at the lists. They pay for a Commander (+50 points) and then have to upgrade that commander to an SC (+100 points)

I do not think I am reading this wrong. Is it an error or an oversight on everyone else's part? To gain an SC is 150 points total - right?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists Development
Quote:
I do not think I am reading this wrong

You are, unless there's a typo in the NetEA documents.
Author:  Steve54 [ Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists Development
No its 100pts

Commander Add one space marine commander character to a unit on the formation. The commander may be a Captain, Librarian or Chaplain. One Space Marine Commander in the army may be a Supreme commander.

50 points (+50 points if Supreme Commander)
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists Development
Well it is hardly my fault if I keep typing a 1 into your name inexplicably!

(and what joint order? I know nothing - but would you like a game against my 20 new chaos armies? :) )
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