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Space Wolves special rules?

 Post subject: Space Wolves special rules?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:08 am 
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To tie the list closer to the theme/concept/focus of the list (one of mutual support/small horde/assault) Neal Hunt suggested perhaps some special rule or other might be in order.

I've tried a couple but they look like being too powerful as they deal with engagements and playing about with that mechanism seems a bit beyond me without the rule being OTT.

So are there any other ideas that people could see working with regards to the SW concept?

Neal has put forth two:
Neal Hunt wrote:
Pack Instincts - A formation in position to support an assault is allowed a countercharge move. This would need lots of thinking through but if it worked it would allow more support/FF and possibly disrupt the enemy or even allow the support formation to be "drawn in" and participate as part of the assault. Importantly, it is only useful for formations in close proximity to each other so it promotes that.[/i]

[i]Overrun - A SW formation making a consolidation move may move 10cm as long as at least one SW unit ends within 15cm of an enemy unit. This would be a cheap Hit and Run but it only helps if the army is acting aggressively in something resembling the Eldar rolling assault. Formations would have to remain close to take advantage of it for follow-on assaults. Again, lots of thought experiment and testing would be required but you get the idea.


Blacklegion has also put one up:
blacklegion wrote:
Countercharge
Units with the Countercharge ability are eager to gain the initiative in every engagement. If they are assaulted they abandon their positions and run headlong to greet their foe in close combat.
Units with the Countercharge ability gain +5cm on their countercharge* move but never gain the benefits of cover during assaults regardless if they initiated the assault or are being assaulted.

*and consodilation move too?


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves special rules?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:32 am 
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I looked at the list and my opinion is that the list looks very good as it stands. I have not really looked at it in depth so no idea on points or any other details.

What I do see from structure alone is that it is different and stands apart from a vanilla Marine list. I would think that this alone is sufficient and nothing extra is needed for playtests.

Dobbsy: If you are going to insist on a special rule for a 'pack' I do not think it needs to be "all that". In some cases, less is more so let me offer you another rule that will not break the rules yet will offer you what I think you are looking for with little effect (note that you will need to re-word the rule):

The Pack
SW formations that lend their assistance to a friendly SW formation in an engagement may also count their numbers to the combat resolution for outnumbering the opponent.

If your point costings are at a point where it could have been priced at -25 or +25 points and you went with a lower amount, the above rule should be enough to push it over to that next margin.

I hope that helps

Cheers....

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Last edited by frogbear on Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves special rules?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:34 am 
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You could also restrict this further by only having supporting formations within 5cm (10cm?) of the friendly SW formation being able to offer 'The Pack' special rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves special rules?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:53 am 
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I don't think a counter-charge special rule is needed, really.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves special rules?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:16 pm 
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Just to make this thread clearer, it doesn't have to be a specific counter-charge rule. it can be anything to equate the pack mentality idea in some way.

But hey, I don't mind that idea at all, Frogbear! Anyone else have any thoughts, adjustments, holes to pick in it or pedestals to put it on etc.?

Otherwise, perhaps going with what I have so far is more prudent for a while....? Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves special rules?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:26 pm 
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Well I guess you look at what a "pack" provides... that being a community, companionship, cameraderie... "morale", in other words.


So why not do something with rallying?

Like Space Wolves can remove three quarters of their blast markers when rallying, instead of half, as long as there are at least X units in the formation?
(Ie: If the pack is big enough)

Or have large enough "packs" count as having 1x Inspiring automatically?

Or grant extra overkill "hackdown" hits on enemies that are defeated in Engagements, representing the "pack" falling on the enemy and tearing them apart.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves special rules?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:04 pm 
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You sure you need any special rules?

Otherwise the bm management is interesting. Something like remove 1 bm per 2 units in the formation or somesuch instead of half with no modifiers for leader?

Alternatively why not revisit the specifics of ATSKNF and see if any need tweaking.

Or just try and do it with list structure and liberal use of commander!


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves special rules?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:07 pm 
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Well my proposal with the Countercharge ability was more to underline the "ferocity" aspect of the Space Wolves and not their pack mentality.

For ferocity just a +1 on hack-down hits would do it.
For pack mentality ...well the formations are already relatively large and have ATSKNF AND can get more than one Character with Leader. I don't think that any more improvement of their BM management is needed.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves special rules?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:46 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Well I guess you look at what a "pack" provides... that being a community, companionship, cameraderie... "morale", in other words.


So why not do something with rallying?

Like Space Wolves can remove three quarters of their blast markers when rallying, instead of half, as long as there are at least X units in the formation?
(Ie: If the pack is big enough)

Or have large enough "packs" count as having 1x Inspiring automatically?

Or grant extra overkill "hackdown" hits on enemies that are defeated in Engagements, representing the "pack" falling on the enemy and tearing them apart.



How about something along the line of the ork "mob rule" but instead of bonus to the rally rolls have it as "above x" stands remove 1 extra BM "above XX" stands remove 2 extra BM's for successful rally rolls .


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves special rules?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:41 pm 
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Less math and more generalisation is preferred I would think. It's Epic, not 40K. Then again, as has been stated, with ATSKNF and larger formations, no extra rule is really needed and will increase the cost of formations.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves special rules?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:27 pm 
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Hmm, all very good ideas and points. I think maybe the wait and see approach is perhaps the best route to go down.

But keep the ideas coming folks because any ideas could be used in the future if it turns out the list needs it.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves special rules?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:50 am 
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how about something which provides a benefit when attacking weakened (or broken) formations to represent them focusing on the weaker members of 'the herd' so to speak.
if it only kicks in once some attacks have already gone into that formation, it wont be too prevalent or costly, and encourages a particular playstyle

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves special rules?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:14 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Hmm, all very good ideas and points. I think maybe the wait and see approach is perhaps the best route to go down.

I agree. Test it and see if there is something missing before worrying about a special rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves special rules?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:27 am 
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In this weekends playtest battle Space Wolves (Jesse) vs Orks (Rich) we will not be using any special rules outside the standard SM rules. Also I will be restricting the battle to No War Engines Allowed (We already know the WEs work they don't need playtesting), so the list can get a real fleshing out on the table top. Neither player has a problem with this, and it has been my experience with Epic-A that the best way to flesh out a list early on is to place restrictions on the battles so one can concentrate on what is in the list.

Upon its completion I will be putting together a Battle Report with turn by turn maps, and an AABS from the players, judge and observers. I will be sure to toss up the question, after the battle, on if anyone feels a special rule is needed for the Space Wolves.

Cheers All


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