On point 2, clarification is needed of whether it's a single BM, or Leader (Marines remove 2 per character with Leader as per ATSKNF).

Which is my biggest issue with the Heroes Rule. The ability to remove 1/2+4 BM's on a successful rally, seems a bit much.

EDIT: Actually, there's no mention of ATSKNF in the list. I assume that's an oversight, else I remove my objections above, and have a whole slew more.

Morgan Vening

Thanks for the responses.
Let me start by saying have no fear. 2.1 is the basic starting playtest document. I already have changes ready for 2.1.1 which changes the Fenris Wolves by removing the auto-hero and makes the Thunderwolf a design note rather than a specific hero.

On the Long Fangs, again they're a starting point. Matt, or anyone for that matter, if you can do some vassal testing with these guys that would be awesome. Long Fangs get no Heroes btw so they'll only ever get the extra 2BM removed across the formation as the note states. So I foresee that a broken formation (essentially 8BMs) that rallies, gets to remove 4 + 2, leaving 2 BMs. So they will usually still have some suppression and take a little longer to clear BMs. It's a design to have them be small but very sturdy - something Long Fangs are supposed to be - but not completely ignore the effects of suppression etc. The cost for the leader ability is built in also - basically, a tentative +25 points starting cost for the leader ability.

In terms of no mention of ATSKNF, it is an oversight and the intention for the SW heroes is that you only benefit from one Leader at anytime but get the benefit of the attacks etc. (and some redundancy) and the main purpose of the change to the characters for SW is to have a more "Hero-based" fluffy army without getting too OTT. I am considering making it so they just get to remove a single extra BM instead but would like to see some feedback first.

Hope this clears thngs up. I just want to make sure everyone is clear about the 2.1 list being very tentative right now. Having no benefit of battle reports or game feedback as yet, means it can only be such.

Sorry Freebooter I missed your post regarding the removal of Warhounds. My reasoning is two-fold. 1/ Space Wolves are particularly proud so it seemed a decent way to say "Our Wolf Scouts can do the reconnaisance job" - it was a little more flavoursome IMO. 2/ I wanted a SM list that didn't rely on Warhounds like you see in a lot of SM armies

will do. My current vassal game should be finished today so I'll get one going today or tomorrow. I manage about 1 1/2 games a week, so I should be able to crank out a couple of tests fairly quickly. Any preference with regards to armies to test against? I can't promise much by way of batreps, but I'll do what I can

couple of questions:

1) the 10pts upgrade to give a hero an extra attack. Is this both CC and FF or only in addition to the +1EA MW eg. does a Rune Priest with the +1EA upgrade get 2 FF attacks or 3 CC attacks (1 of them MW) or 1 FF and 3 CC?

2) are the Fenrisian wolves allowed in thunderhawks?

just finished 1st turn against Dave's Tau variant list. What with my inability to save (2 out of 18!) and his ability to roll 7s (every fm he fired with hit at least once and I failed every save) I'm not sure how valid it's going to be for playtesting purposes, but so far the Long Fangs have proved vicious. Not sure if they've been worth their points yet, simply because they've vanished in a poof of smoke every time they've been fired at, but they're pretty nasty.

Matt - the extra attack should be a basic CC attack. Bite/claws etc. (base contact) EA+1

I haven't decided about wolves in THs but my gut is to say no - in my view they should be a foot slogger element, but I'm happy to get other opinions on the topic. What do other SW officianados think?

When you say the Long fangs died in a puff of smoke is that because of your saving throws or because they're a small formation? Or both? I had a general feeling they'd be fairly vulnerable to heavy shooting and it's one of the reasons why I've kept their points at 300 so far (for 2.1.1), but I'm keen to see more tests with them obviously.

Thanks for the feedback. Sorry to hear about your saving throws though - not good to see the Emperor's finest dying like flies

I'd say the Thunderwolves should be allowed in Thunderhawks, because they have to get planetside somehow.

Also, because they both have "Thunder" in their names.

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ah, ok. It would be worth making that explicit as it's not clear. Personally though, I'd just lose it. Seems unnecessarily fiddly and I can't think of a reason why I wouldn't upgrade every single Hero with it, which is usually a good indication of something being undercosted. If it was 25pts I'd consider keeping it as that gets to the "hmm, have to think about taking this" level.

Played a complete game against a Squat variant list (vs. Morgan Venning). Again the Long fangs got toasted and I took 3 fms of them (just added a hunter to each). Partly because they're smallish fms (saves were about average this time, though sometimes with a -1 save from Morgan's Goliath cannons) but mostly I think because they can throw out a huge no. of hits. As such, both my opponents have rightly been scared witless by them and gone to huge efforts to wipe them out. They also shed BMs like crazy, so they stay effective a lot longer than they would do otherwise. Neither game has been against an approved list, so all to be taken with a pinch of salt. I would consider dropping them a pip to AP4/AT5 or AP/T5 for the points. Another suggestion, from Morgan, was to make them a 1fer with Grey Hunters. Other than as a t'hawk or drop pod load out I can't see much point taking Grey Hunters forgot, to take an SC) - I'd rather go with Swiftclaws instead.

Wolves were kickass. Sadly the Thunderwolf got toasted early, but they still managed to take 3DC off a Leviathan before being taken down by overwhelming support fire. Haven't got to use them in my other game yet. I'll definitely be trying them out in a thunderhawk.

Another Q - to get the Venerable Dred SC, you have to buy said Ven Dred (75pts) then add the Lord to it (100pts), right? SO 175pts all up?

Fair point but is the EA worth 25 points? I figured the points would help fill up a slot when you buy a couple of Vuindicators or the like (65 points each = 130 etc)


Well so far they seem to be acting and playing like I hoped they would. Do you mean 1 Long Fangs Unit per Grey Hunters pack as an add on, or 1 Long Fangs pack per Grey hunters pack?


How would you say the points are for them were minus the Thunderwolf? The reason I ask is that the T-wolf rider will be gone as a specific unit in 2.1.1 and become a design note.

That's correct for 2.1 yes. In 2.1.1 it will be a different design which I'm still playing with the adjustment. It will most likely be add SC to a Wolf Guard to get Wolf Lord Or add SC to a ven dread.

It's definitely worth more than 10pts, but at 25pts it would have to be weighed up against other things and so wouldn't be an automatic choice.


The second. So, you can only take 1 Long Fang pack per Grey Hunters pack. At the moment I would take only the minimum Grey Hunter pack (1) and however many bike or 'claw packs necessary to get as many Long Fang packs as I can. However, that would have it's own consequences, as Grey Hunters are a bitch to use effectively. Ideally they're a thunderhawk load out, but that had a bunch of consequences as that was my SC and I couldn't safely bring them on until 2nd turn (against Dave, actually I never did as I conceded 1/2 way through the turn) or 3rd turn (against Morgan).


Difficult to say - as foot sloggers with no Leader or +2EA MW character, 200pts would be okay I think, largely as it would be balanced out by their lack of FF. Dave wiped them out in FF without any trouble. As a thunderhawk loadout they would kickass - cheap assault fm, getting into CC would never be an issue, so 200pts may be too cheap. I'll try them out that way in my next game. Unfortunately, Dave the slacker has gone on holiday, so that'll have to wait for a couple of weeks


I'd probably start out with a ven dread SC at 125pts, the extra 25pts for the Fearless. Perhaps 150pts, but you'd have to wonder how many people would take it at that cost, although it does make it easier to take the SC in something other than a Grey Hunter pack.

That's a fair point but I'm worried it could also go the other way and no one would take them either, which would be a shame from a fluff perspective.


Would a change to only Grey Hunters as a core make this any better, or would it make the list less fun because you're forced to take so many Grey Hunters when they "are hard to use"? It seems a bit of a dilemma.


I originally based the wolves on the Flesh Hounds at about 20 points each. However, I didn't take into account the cost of summoning etc that the BL list uses. The other issue you then have is that when you add a Hero (as it will be in 2.1.1) the cost factor rises to a 250 point unit. Would they be worth that with just a standard Hero addition?


Well with the change to the SC design in 2.1.1 this may be solved. As I mentioned regarding the change, the Ven Dread unit will just be able to buy SC for 50 so 125 points will be it's likely cost. This also has the added bonus that it won't get the hero's invulnerable save (as you would by just adding a hero to a dreadnought) as well as the Reinforced Armour save it already has.

These are the changes I will be looking at making with the 2.1.1 list so far:

0-1 Wolf Lord
Add the Supreme Commander ability to a Wolf Guard or a Venerable Dreadnought.
Additionally, any Blood, Sky or Swift Claws pack the Wolf Lord joins, gain a 1+ Initiative and ignores the Unblooded rule +50 points[/b]

Pros
I personally think this is a fairly simple way to make the SC useable in multiple formations rather than just Grey Hunters or Terminators Wolf Guard.

It lets the Ven Dread take command of the army without gaining the extra stats of the Wolf Lord (inv save, extra attack etc) instead of a single entity slapped into a Dreadnought.

It grants only one 'Claws pack a 1+ initiative so doesn't throw the Unblooded rule out the window entirely.

Cons
It removes the Unblooded rule for one 'Claws pack thereby letting you take an all 1+ initiative army if you only take 1 formation of 'Claws.

Fenrisian Wolves - remove Thunderwolf rider and add Heroes upgrade to the formation (under the Heroes upgrade, Fenris Wolves may only select one character) 200 points

Pros
A simpler way to include this formation.

Tones it down somewhat (removal of MW attacks) without including an entirely new character type.

Cons
The Thunderwolf goes away thereby likely disappointing SW officianados to some extent.

May be too cheap.

Wolf Scouts - price increase to 225
As some have mentioned, a 4+ CC teleport formation needs the bump in price.

Heroes - Fenrisian Wolves
increased price to +15 points for the upgrade to a Hero.

Thoughts, opinions anyone?

I think adding Wolf Lord to the Wolf Guard/Ven Dred would be a good idea, though I would hold off mucking around with the initiative of the 'claw Packs for the moment, just for simplicities sake.

Removing the Thunderwolf is a good move, though being able to add a hero would mean that I would never not take a Wolf Priest (somewhat fittingly I guess) for the Inspiring. At 250pts that would be a mean Thunderhawk loadout I'd put the Fenrisian wolves points value on the list of things to keep an eye on.

Wolf Scouts - agree.

+15pts for the upgrade to a Hero - not sure what this means. Is this the "15pts for +1EA CC"? Or an extra cost for the Fenrisian wolves to take a character (65pts vs. 50pts for other formations)?

One of the things that I keep bumping up against are the Grey Hunters. I can't really think of anything they do that another formation can't do better. Can't they have some sort of shooting attack, like 1 missile launcher per 2 stands, IG style?

Lol this was in my initial draft way back when during my brief attempt at the list, it went down like a fart in a packed lift...

I guess the other option is to have long fangs as upgrades for Grey Hunters? solves the problem of the amazing Long Fangs packs and not quite up to par Grey Hunters, maybe