Here is the first draft for discussion. I hope I've captured the feel and that there's not too many "toys" for people's personal tastes. Hopefully people will enjoy it. Thanks for looking.

Version 2.0
http://www.players.tacticalwargames.net/tiki-download_file.php?fileId=129
posted 9/4/10

BTW is the name the link function available yet on the new boards?

I'm liking the look of it.. very cool.. I would still have loved them to have thunderwolf formations, but.. hey they seem to have a lot going for them

I'd remove the Thunderwolf Upgrade for Heroes, as otherwise you'll end up with Thunderwolves with the Jetpack ability, and I don't want to know how that works.

Leave the Thunderwolf just to the Wolf Pack IMO.


Can't say as I agree with the price points you've chosen for the Vindicator and Predator Upgrades.


Long Fangs look too good as a formation on their own, even without the Lascannon stat typo (You gave it AT4+). I thought they were going to be an upgrade for Grey Hunters?

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Just a few thoughts from a first glance:

Do Venerable Dreadnoughts really need an invulnerable save? They already have 4+ reinforced, and you could always add a character to one if you really want the 6+.

Iron Priests are basically tech marines, right? Elsewhere in epic they're pretty much ignored/subsumed into the stats of other characters. Is there a particular reason the space wolves should be different?

Thunderwolves: As E&C notes, the ability to have 60cm charging jump pack thunderwolves or even 70cm charging bike ones is not a good thing. Personally I don't think thunderwolves even need a datafax; just allow any of the existing characters to be added to a fenrisian wolf unit and tada, thunderwolf. If you do keep the datafax, make it for fenrisian wolves only.

Wolfguard Terminators kinda suck. I know they're cheaper than normal termies, but maybe FF4+ CC2+ could make them more interesting?

Are bloodclaws really as good as assault marines in close combat? I don't know their 40k stats, genuine question.

Wolf scouts: plasma guns and sniper rifles? On every base? Not sure on that.

Longfangs: I know they can have up to 4 heavy weapons per squad in 40k, but they shouldn't in epic. It's just too much, and they won't always have 4 per squad at this level. Average it out to 2 or 3 at most. Also, get rid of the plasma cannons; keeping track of multiple slow firing weapons per infantry base is a nightmare. I'd average it out to 3 missile shots personally, or do as E&C says and only allow them as a small upgrade for other formation (they could have normal leader in that case too. As E&C notes the lascannon stat is a typo.

Land Raider Crusader: I believe the consensus was that if removing the Multimelta it should go to FF4+, to retain the same number of average hits just without the potential macro.


Do Fenrisian Wolves have ATSKNF? If so you can potentially build some horribly big, almost unbreakable formations. If not, how does having the two mixed in a formation work?

I'd love to see a properly characterful Space Wolf list (they'd be perfect rivals to my Thousand Sons). Still, a couple of points irk me about this effort which otherwise I like.

Why bother with Iron Priests? There aren't Techmarines in the codex list. Seems like an unnecessary extra.

Why not just keep the standard Terminator stats (other than losing teleport)? The SW aren't particularly known for using Cyclones as far as I know, so it just seems like unnecessary fiddling.

How come plasma guns on the Long Fangs - I thought Plasma was more of a Dark Angel thing? I'd say Las and missile launchers might be more appropriate.

Finally, the Wolf Scouts seem to have too many weapons to me, particularly considering plasma guns and the like generally rolled into a units firefight value. I appreciate that they are far superior to the 'standard' marine scout, but would have thought that boosts to their CC/FF would be a better way to represent this than adding extra weapons.

Other thoughts - the Long Fangs don't come with transport... intentional? Seems strange they can't get rhinos at all unless there is some background I'm unaware of. Presumably the 'transport' rule is the same as the codex one so they can use drop pods etc, but aren't the Wolf Guard able to use drop pods as well? I thgought that was one of the unique thingsd about the SW terminators, them using pods to assault rather than teleporting.


Otherwise I definitely like the look of it, particularly the 'unblooded' rule which seems very characterful.

Plenty of people (including myself) have playtested your suggested stats. We don't like them.

Agreed that the Thunderwolf just just be a unit, or a character upgrade to a Wolf unit.

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Longfang is a wierd exception to the normal rules on heavy weapons in squads, Longfang squads are almost always 5 man/4 heavy weapons sargent in the background. whereas Devestators are normally 4 heavy weapons to 10 men, which are sometimes split down to 4 weapons in one 5 man squad and 5 men with just bolters, but in Epic scale averages out to 2 heavy weapons for every stand. I actually don't have that much of an issue with 4 shots from a stand, it is going to be just as easy to kill as a normal marine and will cost more.

I personally don't see a problem with combining a normal lord stats with the Thunderwolf's stats as they stand and use that as the stats for a Lord on Thunderwolf. I don't think there are many instances of a Librarian or Iron Priest on one. Then work out the point for adding the entire unit into a formation rather than using it as a character upgrade.

Cheap shot and you know it.
Listen to the voices on this forum; on this issue your voice is basically alone.

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Some time ago (i guess years ago) there was proposed to give Long Fangs 2 x Twin Missile Launchers 45cm AP4+/AT4+.

Also Iron Priests are unessessary as Techmarines are too.

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hmm I like that, it also kindoff represents the Long Fang split fire idea

Twin missile launcher is 45cm AP4+/AT5+

I think the consensus is shaping up pretty quickly and I agree with the general sentiments expressed so far.

Can you take a Grey Hunter formation and choose 0 heroes? Having it in the Units list implies that it's mandatory but the upgrade says "up to 2" which one could reasonably assume includes zero.

Is the Venerable Dread really a Supreme Commander? It seems to me that they should be Hero-level but not SC. Maybe that changed in the recent codex.

Why would you add Fenrisian Wolves to a formation? They can't be transported. They're too slow to keep up with Jump or Bike troops. But they are 20cm so they prevent the formation from garrisoning. If you want them to accompany characters, I suggest writing them into the stat line for the Heroes rather than adding actual units. "Fenrisian Wolves, Assault Weapon, +1EA" or something. Possibly not even that, and just let them be part of the improved CC stat lines across all the units. You could still use wolf units for a dedicated formation.