Tactical Command
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EpicUK Salamanders submission
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=17382		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  EpicUK Salamanders submission
Ok I sent the following like an eager beaver off to Epic towers. Then NH pointed out some may have improvements to offer :)

So here is the list that was sent, what else could be changed? It is different from the NetEA one with fewer and less complex options.

Other suggestions to date are the Prometheus and Helios upgrades are dropped as their net impact is minimal.
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  EpicUK Salamanders submission
From the other thread...

Simplify Helios selection

I think you could cut Close Support from the Whirlwinds and Helios from Terminators and make the Helios "Add 1-2 Helios, X points each."

Only LR formations would have both.  I would not expect big, veiny Land Raider formations to be a common result of having both Close Support and Helios available.  They'd be in the titan point range.  Formation count is tough enough in this list that I think it would make it hard to do this often.  And that's doubly true with the EUK emphasis on activation count.

==

Knowing the EUK proclivities, I'd say it needs to drop some of the unit variants as well.

Land Raider transports - Redeemer sticks with the flamer theme, but a non-command version of the Prometheus would, as noted on the other thread, fit with the Salamander background fiction.

Dreadnoughts - Possibly one configuration (+ Codex configs).

Attack Bikes - Limited to one formation as it is, so not much potential use.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:23 am ]
Post subject:  EpicUK Salamanders submission
Quote: (nealhunt @ Dec. 10 2009, 19:09 )

From the other thread...

Simplify Helios selection

I think you could cut Close Support from the Whirlwinds and Helios from Terminators and make the Helios "Add 1-2 Helios, X points each."

Interesting idea, probably worth doing.

Quote: 

Only LR formations would have both.  I would not expect big, veiny Land Raider formations to be a common result of having both Close Support and Helios available.


The choice I see as viable is raiders, 2 hunters, 2 helios, Character for Leader, 750 points. Would be an interesting Titan alternative :)

Quote: 

Dreadnoughts - Possibly one configuration (+ Codex configs).


There is currently 2 dred configs, the modified short range one and the normal long range one.

Quote: 

Attack Bikes - Limited to one formation as it is, so not much potential use.


True, was the reason the tornado and typhoon were dropped originally.

Currently raw numbers wise the list has 33 units (counting AT/AP Raazorbacks as two and so on and not including characters) vs the EUK main lists 31, 19 formation choices vs 20 (though choices here are far more limited for mainstays like Scouts), 11 upgrades vs 10, 8 new units vs 2-7 for variant lists. Taking all your suggestions (dropping a Land Raider and attack bike) makes it 31, 19, 10, 6.

I wonder if Matt, Steve, Dave and co can be tempted to come comment :)
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:34 am ]
Post subject:  EpicUK Salamanders submission
Another bit that could be dropped is Sniper. More limited number of scouts here and anyway in the EUK form its pretty useless, can't compare to a Razorback. (Or change it back to the 50 points, all scouts get sniper upgrade, which at least has a chance of being taken!)
Author:  Mephiston [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:24 am ]
Post subject:  EpicUK Salamanders submission
One question I have is why are the rhino's explicitly listed and not given 'plus transport'. This will not allow the salamanders to use the 'Superior tactics' special rule.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  EpicUK Salamanders submission
Correct, the only special rule they have is ATSKNF (included in the pdf), they don't get transport or superior tactics.

Primarily it was to stop the extra razorback for mech formations (they do not need it and the idea is you get a land raider for the extra transport to fit in with all the stuff written about Salamander style) without changing a universal special rule - it just seemed easier to leave it out. The Sallies are supposed to be less snappy and a bit more staid than regular marines and it seemed to be another way of showing it.

But primarily it was to stop the extra rhino trick - of course that was me playtesting and finding it unnecessary, if others don't it can go back.
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  EpicUK Salamanders submission
Quote: (Mephiston @ Dec. 11 2009, 06:24 )

One question I have is why are the rhino's explicitly listed and not given 'plus transport'. This will not allow the salamanders to use the 'Superior tactics' special rule.

In addition to what TRC says, the "plus transport" has negative consequences for ground pounder marines.  You can never have more than a single "extra" transport slot and we all know how ground SM forces can bog down after a few AT hits kill off their transport.

Personally, I think that's why ground-focused SM forces always have lots of fast attack and Warhounds.  They maintain mobility when the line infantry end up at 15cm move.

However, if you provide a fixed number of Rhinos that allows you to buy extra transport straight up through the Close Support upgrade, and it is 4+RA.  It's typical in the Salamander batreps to have formations with +1 Land Raider and it makes a huge difference.  The Land Raider "shield" makes the formations play a lot harder and stay more tactically flexible after taking fire.  It changes the feel substantially and the Marines feel like elite mech infantry.

LR transport also provides a real alternative to Razorbacks.  3 Razorbacks is 75 points, +3 units, +1 transport slot, +3 weapons.  A Land Raider is +75 points for +1 unit at 4+RA, +2 transport slots, +3 weapons and a better boost to FF.  Most importantly, the amount of AT fire required to stop the +Razorbacks formation is much smaller.  The LR + Rhinos can take about 1.5x in a single salvo and potentially a lot more if it's spread out over multiple attacks and several hits are allocated to the LR.

"Plus transport" takes away that +2 transport from the LR.  Suddenly, it doesn't look so great.  The firepower required to stop the formation drops precipitously and you still have to buy an odd number of Razorbacks to get extra transport.

Besides all that "SM formation + Land Raider support" is just cooler and more fluffy than having every formation min-maxed as "SM formation + Land Raider + 1 Razorback."
Author:  dptdexys [ Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  EpicUK Salamanders submission
I like the look of this list and have watched it's development for a while.

Hopefully it's given a chance by the Epic UK commitee, especially as one of my Marine armies look like Salamanders.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  EpicUK Salamanders submission
What, the grey one? :)
Author:  dptdexys [ Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  EpicUK Salamanders submission
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 17 2009, 15:41 )

What, the grey one? :)

No not the Grey one's nor the Black or White one's but the Green one's I've been using for the last year or so  :D
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  EpicUK Salamanders submission
Sorry, news as momentous as that has yet to reach Asia :)

To return to Neals point on dropping Raiders. The majority of testing was done with regular land raiders. The redeemer was added when GW released it. One point for Prometheus over the Redeemer is its a lot easier to scratch build!
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  EpicUK Salamanders submission
Quote: (Rug @ Dec. 18 2009, 14:42 )

As I understand the wording you can still take a single razorback on top of the rhinos as you cannot replace 1 rhino with one razorback. Correct?

The Rhinos are assigned to the formation. So if you buy a razorback you lose a rhino. No 'free' Razorback in this system.

So it reads
Razorback Replace any number of Rhinos with 1-2 Razorbacks each 25 points each
And it is a literal interpretation of what is written.

So you have say a Tactical formation, 300 points, 6 stands, 3 Rhinos.
You could get extra marines and an extra rhino for 75 points.
You could get the close support upgrade and add a Land Raider and a Hunter/2 land raiders for 150 points. The Land Raiders do not replace Rhinos.
Finally if you wanted Razorbacks you could get an extra one but it would replace a rhino, just as 2 would.
Of course now you have made your BTS and its a minimum of 525 before razorbacks and leaders!
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  EpicUK Salamanders submission
Why not simplify it and always replace 1 Rhino with 2 Razorbacks for 50pts?
Author:  Steve54 [ Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  EpicUK Salamanders submission
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 11 2009, 03:23 )

I wonder if Matt, Steve, Dave and co can be tempted to come comment :)

The lists that have been put forward to us have been circulated to the other commitee members - we're all going to have a look and comment on them and then I'm going to collate them and get back to the respective list developer.
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