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| Space Marine Ground-Pounders http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=17231 |
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| Author: | Simulated Knave [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Space Marine Ground-Pounders |
I doubt I'm the only one who occasionally is foolish enough to try and play Space Marines on foot, possibly even in formations built around Battle Companies (two Tactical formations, one Assault, one Devastator).  I've seen it noted several times on this forum that the Space Marine list is designed and costed around air assault.  That's well and good, but that doesn't seem (to me), to be a good thing.  Space Marines do a lot more in the fluff than pop out of Thunderhawks (they also pop out of Drop Pods and Rhinos), and I'm one of those people who likes to do things that resemble things in the fluff.  If the current Space Marine list leans so heavily toward Air Assault, the obvious thing to do (to me) is create a Space Marine list without the Air Assault option and cost it accordingly, so that players can have both experiences if they so desire, and are not penalized for trying to do something other than "lots o' Devs and Assaults in Thunderhawks".  Are Space Marines without Air Assault viable?  And if not, should a list be created without the option, so that a Space Marine ground list could be more competitive?  Would the costs of various Space Marine formations be noticeably different without the option to take Thunderhawks and other aerial transports? Hena Edit: Fixed title. |
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| Author: | Legion 4 [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Space Marine Ground-Pounders |
Space Marines can be deployed to the battlefield not only by Dropship, Pods and T/Hawks but by Raiders, Rhinos and Razorbacks ... |
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| Author: | Simulated Knave [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Space Marine Ground-Pounders |
Yes. I know. I have, y'know, read the list. Several times. Last I checked, however, the accepted definition of a competitive Space Marine army featured lots of Devs and Assault Marines in Thunderhawks with some support. And some Warhounds. Possibly Terminators in the Thunderhawks instead. The list seems to be costed around people doing that. Hence my question - should there be a list without that option, with costs adjusted accordingly, so people who want to try just running around in Rhinos all the time can do that? |
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| Author: | Dobbsy [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Space Marine Ground-Pounders |
So much could be done to the Marines but it doesn't get done because some attitudes are a bit stuck in the mud regarding the Marines. Jervis nullifying a lot of good debate and action on the marine list, when he knocked back those changes, did not help one iota IMO.  But that's just my opinion. |
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| Author: | Dobbsy [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Space Marine Ground-Pounders |
That's different. But what were the opposition lists like? I'm also noting that it didn't win 
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| Author: | Fortis [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Space Marine Ground-Pounders |
I really don't get why people think that air assaulting marines aren't fluffy? Every single video game clip of space marines I can remember has thunderhawks either swooping in or taking off. Anyway, go look at the scions list it's a bit different. But really, if you want to play with ground pounding marines can't you just do that, find an opponent who wants to play a force at a similar level of tuning and have some fun? Why does it have to be the "competitive choice"? |
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| Author: | The_Real_Chris [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Space Marine Ground-Pounders |
Variant lists are slowly coming out. Two that directly try to address this so far are Henas marine armour list and BL and I's Salamander list which has the specific aim of allowing marines to act as a heavy mechanised force. Others coming up are Space Wolves and to some extent Dark Angels, though they still have the air assault ability the standard '2 warhounds and a squadron of thunderbolts' isn't there leading to some different styles supported by ground options. In the far future Imerpial Fists are knocking around do there siege attack/defence thing in which drop pods are out and air support limited, else why would you bother with the defending or besieging 
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| Author: | Apocolocyntosis [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Space Marine Ground-Pounders |
Quote: (Fortis @ Nov. 24 2009, 06:20 ) I really don't get why people think that air assaulting marines aren't fluffy? Every single video game clip of space marines I can remember has thunderhawks either swooping in or taking off. Id agree with this. I also thought Marines were meant to be more of a ‘surgical’ tool, dropped into tough spots, getting the job done, then out to redeploy elsewhere while the IG secure things, this seems to fit very well with an air assault army. However, i also agree this should not be their exclusive use  |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Space Marine Ground-Pounders |
If there is an issue with the points, house rule some options. One example that has been done is a 50 point discount for Terminators who do not use the teleport ability. At the end of the day, it is the games you have at home that are really the most fun. Tournaments on the other hand are just an experience and a chance to play against and meet other gamers. Nothing prevents you making house rules or a 'ground pounder' list of your own.  |
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| Author: | GlynG [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Space Marine Ground-Pounders |
Good for you Simulated Knave, I strongly agree with you Personally I haven't started gaming with SMs yet since I got back into epic this year, but when I do I intend to use E&Cs 'All Arms' SM list, it does exactly what you, me and others in the past are wanting, without needing to use a variant chapter list. The original thread is here, though the list itself seems to have been a casualty of the forum crash. I'm (hopefully) uploading a saved copy I have as an attachment here. Note this is an idea that hasn't seen much playtesting, but do post up what you think and how you do with it if you use it (I'll do the same myself eventually, though I fancy trying a bunch of other armies first before trying marines out). Quote: Fortis: I really don't get why people think that air assaulting marines aren't fluffy? It's not that an airborne SM list is un-true to the background / how they should be, but it's only one aspect of they can fight - they should be excellent at other sorts of warfare too (they are in W40k / the background) including purely ground based attacks too and in their current incarnation it's widely recognised that they're really not. The other thing that sucks in the current SM list is the internal balance of the list and how poor Tactical Marines are for their point cost - these guys are meant to great all rounders and the backbone of the chapter, providing the majority of it's fighting strength. Currently they are considered a poor choice, with lots of lists taking one or none while Warhounds are talked about being the real core unit competitive Marine lists are built around, with Terminators not far behind... and this is just wrong and not how it should be. Oh and welcome to the forum Simulated Knave!  |
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| Author: | Honda [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Space Marine Ground-Pounders |
I would agree with Rug on this. I think one of the problems "some" people have with the SM's is in trying to play them like IG with better saves. That doesn't work. If you don't play them to their strengths, you eat it nearly every single time. Awhile back, there was this huge thread about Mud Marines. Remember that one? Several of us tested out ground SM lists, no Air Assault assets to see how they did. I took a list that only had tacticals+hunters and Whirlwinds+Hunters. It did surprisingly well against a pretty decent IG list. Since it isn't uncommon to be outnumbered when playing SMs, you have to focus on biting off chunks of the opponent's list and destroying them so that by late T2 - early T3, you have an activation advantage. Now, I don't want to imply that this is easy, for as Napoleon said, "It is the simple things that are so difficult", but getting in a battle of attrition or maneuver with other lists will break your heart everytime. SMs in Epic are in no way like their 40K big brothers. They aren't the learner army, they are one of the more difficult finesse (meaning you have to learn how to use them) lists. I lost a lot of games as the SM player before things started to click for me. So think, hit first, hit hard, and never let up the pressure. That is how you play SMs whether you fly them in or drive them in. |
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| Author: | Mephiston [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Space Marine Ground-Pounders |
I was a part of the Mud Marine experiment back in the day. Over time I came to the conclusion that you can play a ground list with Marines, but its going to be hard work and is totally unforgiving. As Honda says you have to leave all the 40k marine ideas behind when you get to epic. |
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