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Vindicators
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=16789		 Page 1 of 6
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Vindicators
Having used Vindicators with upgraded stats (Speed 25cm, Walker) quite a lot I feel they are still underperforming.

I do like Walker on them, but they're just no good compared to other 75pt choices.

An official-stats Vindicator is not really worth 50pts, let alone 75pts.

I could see that upgraded Vindicator as being worth 50pts (they still slow down the formation and don't shoot as well as a pair of Razorbacks, but they do have FF4+ and AS4+ to balance things).
Author:  nealhunt [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Vindicators
I can go either way.  There are advantages to each.  As-is stats seems to have a consensus of ~50 points each, which is quick and easy but with respect to capabilities still doesn't mesh well with any of the other SM units/formations (much like the problem with Dreadnoughts).
Author:  fredmans [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Vindicators
When I look at the original unit stats, it strikes me that Vindicator is given stats for close support, whereas other tanks suffer in engagements. Giving the Land Raider FF4+ has left the Vindicator behind. If the original intention of the Vindicator is to be kept, that of being the Engagement tank, I think FF3+ would be a good change.

/Fredmans
Author:  vytzka [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Vindicators
I think speed is the biggest problem. What was the original reasoning to make that poor thing 20 cm all of sudden when all other Rhino hulls have 30? (and move identically in 40k)

I still think having MW on the Demolisher gun would not be out of line given that it's the biggest gun in Marine army and it's not like we have that much MW to begin with.

I don't like armor save increases, even though they have those huge-ass dozer blades in front (which I haven't modelled on my ghetto converted vindicators), those never gave any benefits armor save wise in 40k. Any of FF, AP or AT increases would be welcome as it's at least something.

A thought occurs... Vindicator formations in Apocalypse can focus fire into a single 10" blast template. It also removes buildings, but that's the can of worms best left unopened from what I remember of a recent thread. But it could warrant adding a short range Barrage weapon capacity to Demolisher cannon.

edit: just to make it clear I'm not advocating for all of this stuff at once! Just giving suggestions. I'm a Marine player and obviously biased, but I really like the look of the tank (first models I ever painted for Epic and one of my favorites in 40k) and think it should be used more - and not only with Landing Craft.
Author:  Dwarf Supreme [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Vindicators
Is there a good reason why the Vindicator's move isn't 30cm like all of the other Rhino variants? 20cm is waaaay too slow. Even 25cm is on the slow side. Whatever else is done with the stats, please increase the speed to 30cm.
Author:  fredmans [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Vindicators
I always thought Vindicators were designed as an assault tank, with the Landing Craft in mind.

/Fredmans
Author:  vytzka [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Vindicators
Limiting it to Landing Craft use is not very fair or interesting. Besides, why have that huge dozer blade when you're just being dropped into place and retrieved again?

Always allowing them to garrison would be another idea, though it's a special rule and one dependant on GT scenario to boot. As there's no way in heck that thing has Scout!
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Vindicators
EpicUK formation of 6 in the bt list for 350 is fun (shame its not in all the EpicUk lists).

A more full answer - pretend the Annihilator doesn't exist and compare the destructor with the vindicator
Speed 30cm, 4+, FF5+, CC6+, Autocannon, 2 heavy bolters
Speed 25cm, 4+, FF4+, CC6+, Demolisher

So same toughness. The Predator has a 10cm counter charge and a 5cm speed advantage. The Autocannon gives a limited shooting ability for 15cm more than the demolisher. In a FF a Vindie formation gets 2 hits, while a predator formation gets 1 1/3. The Vindicator has IC so no infantry cover saves.
Guns wise here they are for double, advance and sustain at 30cm.

4 Predator Destructor's (275 points)
Double
Not in cover 2AP / 1 1/3AP&1/3AT
In Cover 1AP / 2/3AP&2/9AT
Points per hit AP (in cover) 275
Advance
Not in cover 4AP / 2 2/3AP&2/3AT
In Cover 2AP / 1 1/3AP&1/3AT
Points per hit AP (in cover) 137.5
Sustain
Not in cover 6AP / 4AP&2AT
In Cover 4AP / 2 2/3AP&2/3AT
Points per hit AP (in cover) 68.75

4 Vindicators (250 points)
Double 2AP / 1 1/3AT
Points per hit AP 125
Advance 2 2/3AP / 2AT
Points per hit AP 93.75
Sustain 3 1/3AP / 2 2/3AT
Points per hit AP 75

Increase the vindie unit count to 6 for 350 and you get
Double 3AP / 2AT
Points per hit AP 116.67
Advance 4AP / 3AT
Points per hit AP 87.5
Sustain 5AP / 4AT
Points per hit AP 70

Remember IC further increases its ability to kill infantry as no horrible building saves, up to twice as good per hit than the predator then. The pred of course is better at killing things in the open and with greater speed might have a chance of catching things.

So against the destructor better firepower in everything but sustain (as long as the targets are in cover), slower, so more likely to be doubling, worse at responding to assaults, better at attacking in assaults and finally far better AT firepower if needs be, though at a shorter range.
4 compared to 4 the vindicator is I think a better air assault tank and all rounder, the predator thanks to its move a better tank deployed normally. Go to 6 strong and things get more even on the ground with little change in the air.

Add walker and its a closer choice on the ground and little change in the air. So probably walker and 350 for 6 would be on parity with the destructor on the ground :)

But its all moot as everyone normally takes predator annihilators if they run out of warhounds!

Give the damn things their thunderers back :)

Why is it not as fast? The Demolisher cannon and ammo puts a big strain on it and slows it down. Not seen as a problem in built up areas with its dozer blade and better armour however.
Author:  vytzka [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Vindicators
How did the thunderers work?

Nice analysis BTW.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Vindicators
Bigger and better basically. heresy era weapon that got withdrawn in favour of the demolisher for ease of use, maintenance, logistics and weight and resultant ammo capacity.

In case it means anything to you the thunder was in 1st edition AT short range 18cm, 3+ -1 to save, AP short range 18cm, 4+, burst template, -2 save.
A Battlecannon was AT short range 36, 3+ (no idea on save mod), long range 72, 5+, (no idea on save mod). AP  short range 36, 4+, -1, long range 72, 5+, -1

In Epic A terms a barrage would be fun but probably too good, so instead a straight AP2+/AT4+ IC would be the widget.

Ah Adeptus Titanicus with infantry. Those were the days. With the laspistol shots.
Author:  vytzka [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Vindicators
Jesus Christ.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Vindicators
TRC: Your analysis ignores that the Predator Destructor has had a FF boost to 4+, thus eclipsing the Vindicator very nicely (if they are to cost the same ammount).
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Vindicators
Oh yes, I'm used to using my EpicUk codex for all standard marine stuff, it loads better on this ancient laptop than the big official file.
Author:  Chroma [ Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Vindicators
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ Sep. 30 2009, 23:03 )

Oh yes, I'm used to using my EpicUk codex for all standard marine stuff, it loads better on this ancient laptop than the big official file.

Here's a very small file with lots of Marines in it:

NetEA Army Book - DRAFT - Space Marines

(More armies too if you go "up" one level from there.)
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