Just to point out it is already the best place to put a librarian with the above stats (FF3+ with RA4+).

Do the redeemer guns grant FF IC?

Would the 30cm version be two shots or one?

Do you want links of past reports of Redeemer configs posted here?

Land Raider Crusader
Pair of Hurricane Bolters, Small Arms, Extra attack (+1)

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We'll get back to testing those Melta Crusaders tonight.

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A further point.

In the BA list you have the Baal Predator - twin assault cannon, 2 x Heavy Flamers
In the Sally list you have a weaker variant, pred incinerator - autocannon, 2 x Heavy Flamers

In both cases you are looking at a redeemer which is either 35 points more (Sallies) or 12 1/2 points more (Blood Angels). I think people should bear in mind redundancy and especially in the case of the blood angels relative worth (for 12 1/2 pints more I get RA and TRA, better flamers, cc and FF and transport 2 and speed 25 - the last two being down sides in the BA list) compared to the Predator annihilator and a land raider (which is I think the closest parallel in the list). For Sallies its a bit different as use of Land Raiders is an integral part of their viability as mechanised troops.

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"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

I still think the idea of a multimelta that only has half the rules of a normal multimelta is confusing and against the epic ethos.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Hena,

Could you add the LR Ares and Terminus to this list?

Thanx!

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Since the only list with a Terminus is mine:

Land Raider Terminus
Armoured Vehicle; Save 4+; Speed 25cm; CC6+; FF4+
3x Twin Lascannon; Range 45cm; AT4+
2x Lascannon; Range 45cm; AT5+
Notes: Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour

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That's why you put "pintle-mounted" on it... voila!  It's now a new weapon!  

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The original reason people pushed for "pintle mounted" was an admisitrative one; so that the MW could be an extra attack rather than the basic attack of the model. The overall effect would be the same, but the profile much more readable.

Why exactly would the MM of a land speeder be able to shoot, but one on a land raider wouldn't? There's no reason at all.

Either cut the MM entirely or reinstate the shot, but don't leave it as this amateurish-looking half-way-house. I'm in favour of cutting it entirely; the crusader is currently the best LR by far.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

The Land Speeder is a much more manouvreable firing platform? Instead of being stuck in a limited firning position between two oversized track units, the Speeder can zip to and fro, re-positioning itself to fire for effect with its one main gun.

All weapons are not deployed or used equally, just because they have the same theoretical capabilities. A differnce between two seemingly identical weapons does not have to come across as "amateurish" at all.

(Kinda in the the same way a power armoured eight foot super human with a selfloading heavy weapon can get off more shots per minute than an Imperial Guard gun crew having to push their weapon around...)

Either way, testing the Crusader without MW FF attacks might shed some light on the matter? It IS an excellent tank even with just "normal" attacks, as you say.

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Yea but being pintle-mounted the Multi-melta has a 360° arc of fire. I guess a Marine could rotate it much faster than a Land Speeder could swing around.
Soin fact pintle-mounted is even better than on the Land Speeder  

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Fact is, the Multi-Melta is an optional upgrade for Land Raider Crusaders in Warhammer 40,000, and it having weird half stats in Epic makes little sense, decreases rules elegance*, and isn't particularly balanced in any case**.


* Which is supposed to be one of the hallmarks of Epic rules design.

** It was never the ranged shot that was causing problems for the Crusader, but its too-good FF power.

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BlackLegion --> Well, I do believe otherwise, for the following reasons. The LR weapon cannot adjust its altitude. It cannot skim lateraly. It cannot fire from above the enemy at will. I'm not only talking about fire arc, but also of possible fire positions and rapid relocation of the firing weapon between them. On all these points a Speeder mounted weapon beats a ground tank mounted one, hands down. If you just look at the exact piece of hardware the weapon is physically attached to the vehicle with (the pintle mount), you miss the point of my reasoning. A weapon that can be adroitely handled in a fast paced fire fight, should be more efficient in FF combat imho. Weapons that are more "clumsy" but still have great fire power, should be represented by ranged fire instead.

(The part about the marine carried heavy weapon was a complete OT from my part. It's my reasoning why SM tacticals get more heavy weapon shots the IG infantry stands. Sorry for digressing.)

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"Don't use finesse, if force will solve the problem."

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As E&C points out, the ranged MW shot was never a problem on the crusader, it is the MW FF that has always been the issue.

Actually it's the increased transport capacity that's the real problem, but that's pretty much fixed and can't be changed.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread