Pulsar agrees and is considering what modification they require.

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I did suggest sword brethren go down in points when switched to 1 attack 3+.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

sorry i should have put this in the first time you asked but i didn't have much time.

so I can see what your getting at, that THT don't need to be in the list because Thunderhawk Gunships do it better ,after all why would you need them in the list for that roll when you've got the TG which does it so well.

but I don't see them now as a front line engaugement transport, i see them in more of a supporting role, i send them in not to engauge but to land a shoot with a Crusader formation maybe putting BM's on a formation i then air assult with a TG full of hard hitting stuff and then adding support fire because most Space Marine formation can't take on the big powerful enemy formations out there on there own.

Then because the Crusaders/whatever have transport there not stuck in the open at the start of the next with 15cm move, yes bikes work just as well but the way i've put together the list bikes are not a core formation so the THT enable me to free up more of the Detachments of which you can only have a few and that are needed because of there speed elsewere.

does that give more of an idea of the way i see them being useful neal?


yes BT are ment to have Hordeish tendencies but there still a strike force, they still don't want to waste resources on a target by using a large slow force when a small one going in quickly would do as good if not better job.

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yes you did but I wanted to play a few games to see how many point to take them down by

so I was thinking for the Sword Brethren taking off 50 points so there 275?

and yes Hena the Land Raider upgrade shouldn't be in the LR formation avaible upgrades and the note for Neophites - "you can only buy the Neophite upgrade if there are units of Initiates of the same type in the formation" is that to long? is there a better way of putting it? and were should it go?
or do i just have 2 differnt listings i.e. Landspeeders and bikes in two Separate bits?

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But other than being an air horde of WE the THT's don't exactly deliver a horde of troops. Still I would prefer them over a LC simply because one crit can't wipe them out and I can cc more units in a formation with them as opposed to the LC. But are any of those calculations BT?

As for the special rule - how about a BT rule saying each neophyte was be apprenticed to a matching unit or some such.

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if i wanted to use an air horde list i'd take the LC over 3 THT's anyday!!!

spending just 75 points more gets you a fearless WE that can take objective marks on the turn it lands, has a 4+ RA instade of 5+ armour save, yes you get 2 DC extra with the THT's, but even if you can only lose 1/2 or 1/3 of your formation with with one critical, that landing formation isn't going to be that good because it have alot of BM's, and if you want to air drop a formation that big the LC is still much less like to take the dammage in the first place.

and as i've said before THT arn't ment to be for Horde Transport there is other and better ways to do that if you want to, THT are a way of making the Black Templars smaller formations a bit more maneuverable.

as for the Neophites what about:
"Neophytes are apprenticed to Initiates so therefore you can only buy the Neophyte upgrade if there are units of Initiates of the same type in the formation"

i've said as much in the fluff but it does need a word or to in the second page rule section, which i've just spent 20 mins re wording anyway.

Edit: i can't type well today!!!!

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does that give more of an idea of the way i see them being useful neal?

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Neal

Come on, be honest, just say you bought, painted and based them (on the biggest bases known to man ).

On to the not terminators - in multiples of 4 and move 15, and being assault troops they seem to be design to go in thundehawks.

Since this ain't that hot I have two suggestions.

Suggestion one - try to justify THT's ( )
Formation of three with a crusader. Still pricy so not popcorn fodder but gives you the thing you said earlier.

Suggestion two - in addition or instead of above.
Make them a formation upgrade. More hording then. Further if you again make it a 3 strong upgrade you stop it being air assault cheese and give a spare transport slot to a formation if its rhino mounted.

Finally I'm hurt that more people are interested in these one dimensional mono chrome marines when the salamanders have both a better paint scheme and now an even siller background. Plus horde marines sadly beat less hordy marines in assaults due to your cut price sneaky scout upgrade thingys.

Back to undermining the list.

I'd second the 'what is the role of sword vets'. Currently it just seems to be a cost comparison about whether you use them, a marines or terminators. Hell I might even look at them from a 'points per hit' perspective. I think in addition to the above different ways of including them you should look at their stats.

The list is very low on scouts and thats something marines need to deal with certain army types. Plus scouts can trigger assaults. If you gave the swordies scout they could either perform a second tier terminator function and assault from a forward position. Or even better if you do away with independendant formations and have them only as upgrades they give a formation a scout capability. Not only does infiltrate get easier to use but when your troops close witht he enemy you can stick scout ZoC's on them, forcing them to either shift or engage. I do this with orks and guard and its damn effective if you are going for gun lines. It stops them sustaining and wiping you out. Could be what your assault ground pounders need!
Failing all that be dull and give them CC2+ or even 2x4+. But scout and as a 3 strong upgrade is the future I tell you!

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Black Templars are a fleet based Chapter. So they should get any flying transport available to them

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CC 2+ might be justified, but 4+ EA is just attack spam in big formations.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Thats just 1/6 of a hit difference you realise - are things that finely balanced?

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I've seen them at 4+ EA, and it seemed too much. I suggested 3+, which now seems not enough. 2+ seems a logical midstep, no?

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Sword Brethren, well with BT not using Devastators or Whirlwinds (Scouts and Librarians being replaced with Neophytes and the Emperor's Champion) and therefore would have fewer types of Marines than in the codex army.  So I wanted to add some another types of formations, with Templars being a close combat army giving them another unit of that type sounded like a good idea, adding more assult marines or something in that direction wouldn't have worked and besides Blood Angles might have that.

So another type of CC unit, in the fluff Sword Brethren are Marines who would normaly use Terminator armour but because there are alot more Black Templars than in a codex chapter there aren't enough sets of armour to go around, so with the training to use the armour but without they form into units to go into battle.

that the kind of unit I see them being, the most skilled battle tested Marines that the Black Templars have and there stats should reflect that, i gave them infiltrate because i thought it would be like the righteous zeal special rule all templars have it 40K, and the CC 4+ extra attack was because each squad can have 2 special close combat weapons in 40K.

and yes i have seen SB as a alternate for terminators because thats what the fluff says they are, so they're not an different kind of assult marine, just kind of terminator .

and the ideas that people have made well: CC 2+ would be to good as you can put the EC in the formation that would be harsh him hitting on a 2+, and they have 6 stands in a formation not 4 Chris  , i did that because if they were 4 strong being able to put 2 formations in a thunderhawk would be a no brainer, making them only have LR crusaders as the transport would mean the base cost would have to go up alot making them even less of a chioce compared to terminators, and there not a good idea for a formation upgrade as there meant to be a eltie unit who work on there own, giving them scout could work, i fact i might play a few games with that while making the rhino transport an upgrade for them.

does this help people see what i think they should be?

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yes i did think that 5 Attack Bikes + Neophyte "meat shield" Bikers would't be fluffy or workable

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