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The Ultimative All-In-All List
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=14027		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  BlackLegion [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  The Ultimative All-In-All List
A Creativiton struck my brain again and i did a really stupid thing.
I created an Space Marine army list which includes ALL options and some funky force organisation.

It is only the first draft (because i'm curious how you guys will react but for nowi have to go to bed ). Some things are still missing (Thunderhawk variants as in Scions of Iron and the Landing Craft which will be able to transport all unit types, rules for some new special abilities, etc), points cost are still in flux (expecially Tactical units have to become cheaper because they now only have half their shots) but i hope you will get the idea.

Tomy understanding the FOC of WH40k is the biggest single tactical formation a Space Marine force will use. So i added a army specific specialrule to allow to field such a formation. But don't worry all the known small formations are still in there (in some kind of altered apperance).

I bet i will get lots of negative commends on this or will get ignored entirely :D
Author:  zombocom [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:14 pm ]
Post subject:  The Ultimative All-In-All List
Just say no to all in one lists.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  The Ultimative All-In-All List
Just say yes. I believe in you  :vo
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:  The Ultimative All-In-All List
Last things first:  Your Designers Notes simply say "The"... not very informative.   :laugh:

Second, could you re-format it so that stats/armylist aren't split over pages?

Third, 3+RA for Honour Guard is pretty strong... especially if you put a Commander in that unit!

Fourth, while it's nice to have stats for everything in the new Marine Codex, I'm not a big fan of "all inclusive" armylists... limitations also make a list special.

Looking forward to seeing where you go with this though!
Author:  Durandal [ Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  The Ultimative All-In-All List
Quote: (Chroma @ 24 Nov. 2008, 14:23 )

Last things first:  Your Designers Notes simply say "The"... not very informative.   :laugh:

Second, could you re-format it so that stats/armylist aren't split over pages?

Third, 3+RA for Honour Guard is pretty strong... especially if you put a Commander in that unit!

Fourth, while it's nice to have stats for everything in the new Marine Codex, I'm not a big fan of "all inclusive" armylists... limitations also make a list special.

Looking forward to seeing where you go with this though!

Had a post going but I think Chroma sums it up nicely.  I think a big list like this, while useful for theme army enthusiasts who limit themselves, it is a nightmare to balance and it loses a lot of individual flavour that limitations and weaknesses bring.

In order to do a list like this you would likely need to go with a more balanced version of the trait system from 40k's old marine codex.  But instead of cherry picking upsides and downsides give each divergent trait its own built-in positives and negatives.
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:12 am ]
Post subject:  The Ultimative All-In-All List
I don't see any big negatives from a quick overview, but my concern would be the sheer volume of min-maxing that could be done and with how to tell the difference among the plethora of units.  I have a feeling that trying to keep track of which units had what weaponry, for example, would end up being a bit of a hassle.  I don't think I would like to try to play against that unless it was very clear at a glance which units were which.

It will come as no surprise that overall I rather like specific "operating style" lists to reflect a particular combat doctrine rather than trying to put all possibly styles in one universal list.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:25 am ]
Post subject:  The Ultimative All-In-All List
All in one lists are simply not as good as specific lists, sorry BL.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  The Ultimative All-In-All List
I said there are a few mistakes in there. Damn copy-paste. Honour Guard shouldn`t have ReinforcedArmour.

And i believe that all-in-all list can work. AFAIK E:A is the only gme which constists only of specific armylists. And even this is a lie.
Look at the rulebook armylists. They are so non-specific in their specificness that they are useable for a very broad style of armies.

And well... off course all-in-all armylist will take much longer to playtest and balance...but there is a reason that GW needs roughly 6 month to put up a new Codex :D
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  The Ultimative All-In-All List
Quote: (BlackLegion @ 25 Nov. 2008, 15:27 )

And i believe that all-in-all list can work.

Okay, to take that route, then your Imperial Navy section should allow for larger squadrons of T-bolts, and even Marauders, as the "small size" formations are intended to represent the reduced air assets the Imperials had on Armaggeddon.

Limitations/changes like that can make an armylist very cool... what if a Marine Chapter didn't have access to their First Company in a certain conflict?  Or had to make do with elements of Imperial Guard support?

A plausible "all inclusive" list for EPIC would need to include various other Imperial units, and not just Space Marines.

I've tried putting together such a list for my "Imperial Crusade" armylist, and it's fun to use, but allowing all the options for all forces involved would be terribly unwieldy.

I wouldn't mind a "master list" of Space Marine unit stats, covering all the forces Marines can access, but I don't think the actual army list should allow for "infinite" options.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  The Ultimative All-In-All List
Take the prometheus - fantastic in a list with a lot of fast assault formations. So its fine in the armour and salamanders list :)

Lists should have a variety of strategies for them. But allowing all simply means you cherry pick the best.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  The Ultimative All-In-All List
The ImperialNavy seems to be organised like the RAF in early WW2 so wi will put Thunderbolts and Lightnings at 3 per Flight. Have to unearth aposting where i posted this some time ago first to be sure :D

No IG support in this list, because it is a Space Marine only list.
Hmm wait this gives me an idea...I could delete ImperialNavy and Titans alltogether. Instead Space Marines could be allowed 1/3 of their points for other Imperial forces. This could be from any ImperialGuard list, the Imperial Navy (which would need a list of its own...but obviously not playable on itselfe :D ) and/or Adeptus Mechanicus Tian Legions.

On the infinite options: I don't expect this list to be good for tourneys. But it should be useful for friendly games with tourney setups. The list needs limiting by youselfe to choices the Chapter you are playing would use.
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  The Ultimative All-In-All List
Quote: (BlackLegion @ 27 Nov. 2008, 19:47 )

On the infinite options: I don't expect this list to be good for tourneys. But it should be useful for friendly games with tourney setups. The list needs limiting by youselfe to choices the Chapter you are playing would use.

That's why I think a "Master List of Marine Units" is a good idea, while the "Infinite Option Marine Armylist" isn't.

Units are going to have different strengths and, hence, different value to different setups... I don't think "universal" point values will be appropriate.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  The Ultimative All-In-All List
I see universal points be entirely useable...if variant armylists use the same units.
Limitations should the player think up himselfe.

It's what we already do. We take the Codex/Rulebook army list, put some limitations on it's choices, put in some new units and choices, perhabs add some army-special rule on it and voila. A variant army listis created.

This all-in-all list allows this but provides a much greater unit selection form the get-go as well as "typical" formations (= inspired form Wh40k Apocalypse and fluff) for the Space Marines.
Author:  zombocom [ Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  The Ultimative All-In-All List
Quote: (BlackLegion @ 27 Nov. 2008, 19:57 )

I see universal points be entirely useable...if variant armylists use the same units.
Limitations should the player think up himselfe.

But the problem with lists like this is that players dont limit themselves, and min-max the hell out of it. A list with all the options is far more min-maxable (totally not a word).

If you intend it to be used with self-limitation, what's wrong with actual limitation in the form of seperate army lists?
Author:  GR00V3R [ Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:28 am ]
Post subject:  The Ultimative All-In-All List
Just my 2 cents, but...

I can see that you're trying to bring some of the "flavour" that the 40K codex offers into the E:A marines list. That is a cool idea.

I'm interested to see where this list goes once you've taken some feedback.  :)

Cheers!
Mark
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