What is a good list for a Space Marine army:

300 Tactical
075 **Vindicator
075     **Vindicator

300 Tactical
050 **Supreme Commander
050     **Dreadnaught cloase combat style

200 Bikes
050 **Commander

400 Land Raider

200 Land Speeder
025     ** Typhoon

250 Devestator
100 **Dreadnaught
050     **Commander

150 Scouts
025 **Sniper

325 Terminators
100 **Commander

300 Predators

I basically just collected what seemed appropriate, without thinking too much. I really miss the Assault marines, but figured that the bikes would be more effective.

I am meeting chaos with this list...

Any comments would be good

edit: Updated showing the list i played with.

I think you're shy of 3k. What formation are the Dreadnoughts in? Also, did you plan on putting anything in the T-hawk?

Land Speeders and Bikes are good substitutes for an Assault Detachment if you used them to support each other. Firing with the Landspeeders followed by an assault with the Bikes is a sound tactic.

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Thanks Dave.

I have modified the list, and added the missing points. I had the list back home in a excel spreadsheet. I only had one dreadnaught, supporting the devestators.

I was thinking about putting the terminators in the thunderhawk.

Do not put the Supreme Commander into a formation that starts off-board (whether teleporting or thunderhawking), you can only use the re-roll when the SC is on the table. If oyu do so, I can guarantee that you will find yourself needing that re-roll when you cannot use it.  

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Oh Yeah!

I clashed with a Chaos army, consisting of a way too powerful army. I got slaughtered. By the end of round three, i had 3 landspeeders and my supreme commander with bjorn the fell hand left :-( I had only killed bits and pieces of his army.

My opponent had fielded amongs other :
2 scout style titans of slanesh
1 banelord
4 demon engines of khorne
3 leman russ tanks
2 formations with big mutants (mw weapons).
2 formations with cultists

I will hopefully post some pictures of it.

My experience is that it will be hard for a marine army like mine, to kill of the titans and war engines, and they will pose such a threat that its hard for the army to move around and take advantage mobility. Especially facing 2 titans that are able to move 35 and having a combined firepower of 12 + 4 shots.


oh well, next time..

2 ferals and a banelord is 1400 points so totally illegal in a 3k list.

Its even illegal in a 4k.

That assumes the Tournament scenario, but if you're not using that then the points are irrelevant anyway and your marines ought to requisition some IG TK weapons for those games.

As for your list, Vindicators are often seen as poor for the points, at 75 that's more than a Leman Russ and Vindies are about half as good.

They look cool though.

What commander costs 100 points? I thought only SCs were that much and you clearly show yours in the Tacticals, thought that price could be wrong as well.

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Probably Slaanesh Knights / other Slaanesh WE:s found in Lost and the Damned.

But tournamentlist-wise you cant have Banelord in LatD list.


About your list: I would drop Vindicators, dreadnoughtys, typhoon and snipers and then use new tournament points changes that would give your lists cost 2625. Then maybe get Thunderhawk and/or Thunderbolts and some hunters.

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Yeah, that Chaos list is indeed totally illegal, combining Black Legion CSM and LatD cultist formations when these are from seperate list (by that token, the imperial side could have added Imperial Guard units), going over the 1/3rd restrictions for Titans/Air and even fielding formation _upgrades_ as seperate formations (the Leman Russ tanks can be added to a LatD coven, but are then part of that Coven).

You should talk to your opponent!

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Though... maybe your are confusing the Banelord (Chaos Warlord Titan, 8DC) with the Lord of Battles (6DC Chaos Khorne engine, the one with wheels and 2 arm weapons, one of which is a CC weapon).

Suddenly that list would make more sense:

400 Lord of Battles
450 or 550 2x Slaanesh Daemon Knights
325 Khorne Daemon Assault Engines
potentially
400 Traitor Armoured Company (with 6 Leman Russ Tanks, not 3)


200 Coven
200 Coven
320 Coven with 6 Cultists _replaced_ by Big Mutants
320 Coven with 6 Cultists_replaced_ by Big Mutants
----
2815 or 2915 depending on the Daemon Knight type chose

This setup would be legal and have some points to spend on other upgrades to the Coven.

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However, neither the Subjugator Daemon Knight nor the Lord of Battles or a Banelord are very vulnerable to an air assault. They´ll butcher even Terminators, and walk away with some damage but still in the fight.

Hena´s other advice is sound though, that´s the way to win with SM.

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I fully agree on SM being difficult to play for beginners, you really need a firm grasp of various rules and some experience of battlefield interactions to pull decisive maneuvers with them.

On the air assault matter, I concur that FFing will somewhat shift things towards the Terminators, but it is not playing to their strengths and those Subjugators have that long 10cm countercharge. I´d rather aim the Thunderhawk at the Leman Russes, which will die to a tank in the assault and resolution, and try to crossfire the Deamon Knights.

This comes down to a matter of timing: Set up the crossfire late one turn using double moves, win initiative next turn and sustain with those Land Raiders and Predators. The Slaanesh Knights have a measly 6+ reinforced save when crossfired and should die quickly.

Crossfiring won´t work against the LoB though, snce it sports Thick Rear Armour.
It might be best to avoid it and concentrate on more vulnerable formations, it´s shooting is only average and SM are fast enough to avoid ending in it´s charge range.

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Thanks for all the replies.

After last nite (night for me anyway) we were able to pull off almost two rounds of gaming  before i had to leave. I was able to update the list using the 2008 rulebook, reducing the cost of the land raids some, and upping the terminators. I totally removed the Dreadnaughts and vindicators. I still would not give in to using Titans. I did add another formation of Terminators. I did take some pictures that i will post as soon as i get of  the bus.

I was able to inflict some losses on chaos this time. But first, let me say that it obsviously was Lord of Battle that i was facing, a enemy which my forces have faced a "million" times before using the old epic rules. This time, i was unsure on how good he really was, and i will next time be sure to leave my forces well out of his charge range. 6 attacks on +2 pluss an additional 3 ?? Well, good for him. I actually never feared him before, allowing my Blood Claws and first fire Terminators take him out. This time he turned my detachment of 4 terminators and chaplain to a pulp (actually was able to escape with the chaplain).

Success:
I was able to take on DC off one of the slanesh WE (subjugators ?)  and putting them under heavy fire between a teleported terminator squad and my 4 land raiders. The land raiders inflicted "only" 2 wounds (and downed 2 void shields), then forced to assault them, the terminators delivered a total of 6 hits, 1 on the already wounded, and 5 on the undamaged one. This one had to return to the warp, although the other one remained unharmed. (I surrounded the two, 1 terminator on the wounded, and 3 terminators on the undamaged one).

But i am tying up a lot of points doing this !!

Total Failure:
My Tactical squad got vaporised by a coven with a aspiring champion(?) and a blood altar, who had summoned 3 bloodletters and khorne. I had my devestators close by, but their 3 FF hits got soaked by the deamon with his good save.

But my impression is that i would get totally crushed by the next round...

edit: btw, its the second game of epic in what seems an eternity. I believe the last time I played epic was in 1996 or something. Its good to be back, but its not good to be pummeled like this by chaos!!

Yes, 6x 2+ and 3x 2+MW is indeed the power of the LoB in CC ... beware! It is slow, and lacks shields, which puts it at the mercy of TK(D3) weapons like SSwords and Ork Oddboyz. Against SM, it is a safe bet though...

The Slaanesh Daemon Knights are easy meat, it they are shooting at you they are Questors, the ones itching to get into CC are Subjugators, and both types are burning wrecks in the crossfire.

You have a massive initiative advantage on them, use the late turn/early turn tactic I described.

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