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Space Wolves 13th Company
ortron
 Post subject: Space Wolves 13th Company
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:34 pm 
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G'day all,

Well since people are making a start on an eye of terror supplement i thought i'd have a basic crack at a 13th Company list.

These are the brothers marked with the wulfen curse that leman russ sent after Magus the Red.

They have been surviving since the HH in the warp/eye of terror and as a result have very limited troops choices and armour support. However those troops they do have a very good and are a match for most.

Version 0.1, tell us what you think.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Space Wolves 13th Company
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:35 pm 
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Would it not be better to have them as allies/part of a space wolves list?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Space Wolves 13th Company
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:38 pm 
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There are definitely enough in the 13th company to be worthy of having an Epic sized army.

I'd like to see a decent Space Wolves army list mind you ; You should consider doing a Space Wolves army list at the same time.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Space Wolves 13th Company
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:56 pm 
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I'm heading the "Black Crusade" project, and the 13th Company Space Wolves certainly played a role in the Eye of Terror events.

That said, I've seen them more as an "allies" type sub-army for Imperial forces, similar to the Harlequins for Eldar.

How divergent/improved are they compared to "normal" Space Wolves... and is there a Space Wolves army being worked on anywhere currently?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Space Wolves 13th Company
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:22 pm 
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There have been several SW attempts.  2 of them are linked to in the How divergent/improved are they compared to "normal" Space Wolves... and is there a Space Wolves army being worked on anywhere currently?

Fairly divergent.  Their force org is almost entirely non-Codex.  They determine roles by seniority (newbies - assault/blood claws, experienced - tacs, veterants - devs/long fangs) and favor larger formations.  They are averse to teleportation.

Lots of lists have been proposed.  A couple of the more recent lists are linked in the current SM armies thread.

==

I'd also like to see a good SW list so that I can pit them against the Thousand Sons.  I reserved a spot in my last TSons draft to add a scenario and I was thinking a mini-supplement with TSons, Wolves, and a mini-campaign of 3-5 scenarios would be an amusing project.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Space Wolves 13th Company
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:25 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Jun. 04 2008,15:22)
QUOTE
There have been several SW attempts. ?2 of them are linked to in the How divergent/improved are they compared to "normal" Space Wolves... and is there a Space Wolves army being worked on anywhere currently?

Fairly divergent. ?Their force org is almost entirely non-Codex. ?They determine roles by seniority (newbies - assault/blood claws, experienced - tacs, veterants - devs/long fangs) and favor larger formations. ?They are averse to teleportation.

Oh, I know *Space Wolves* are rather divergent, but I was asking how divergent the 13th Company was from the other 12 Great Companies of the Space Wolves.

So, how divergent? ? :)




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Space Wolves 13th Company
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:29 pm 
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Doh!  That's what I get for being pedantic...

I'm not sure on the current fluff.  Originally, the way I recall it is the Wulfen were semi-legendary as the shame of the chapter.  There were only a handful of SW assigned as "keepers" to manage the results of their gene-seed-corrupted descendants.

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Pulsar
 Post subject: Space Wolves 13th Company
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:36 pm 
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the fluff behind the 13th company is that after the Hersy they followed the tratior marines in to the eye of terrior to fulfill a mission that Leman Russ is said to have given them.

and because they were in the warp for so long more of them were overcome buy their wolfen trats or the Curse of the Wulfen as the fulff puts it.

so they would most likely have pre-Hersy tec and tactics




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vanvlak
 Post subject: Space Wolves 13th Company
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:39 pm 
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They have no vehicles apparently, and they also have the Wulfen, a bunch of werewolf-style space marines.

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Mark_Logue
 Post subject: Space Wolves 13th Company
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:25 pm 
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Yes the 13th company are highly divergent to the normal space wolves and act as an entirely separate entity during the advent of the Thirteenth Black Crusade.  At that point they had been separated from the rest of the Chapter for 10,000 years.  At this point they have very low access to equipment and vehicles and have scavenged from chaos space marine forces.  During this time large numbers have succumbed to the more basal side of the space wolf gene-seed with the Wulfen pretty much just crazed bezerkers with little control over their actions.

As for the list it looks like a good start.  I am really keen on trying out 13th company for Epic.  I am a bit of a Space Wolf player and have a 13th company 40K army.

I have a few comments at this stage.

Wulfen - I would probably consider reducing the number of attacks and increasing their CC.  WS5 S5 probably deserves more than 4+ and I don't think 3 attacks in 40K needs to translate to 3 in Epic.  Possibly just CC 2+ without an extra attack or 3+ with Assault Weapon +1 attack.  Khorne Bezerkers or Genestealers should provide a reasonable precedent for the stats.

Vehicles - The restrictions are definitely appropriate, the 40K version didn't allow for any vehicles at all, but having scavenged power armor and weaponry from CSM forces it seems entirely appropriate that they would scavenge for parts and patch up vehicles as well for Epic scale games.  I would consider restrictions on the number of units that can upgrade to Rhino transports as it would be very possible to create a vehicle heavy list.

The Gate - The 40k version of this rule allows for units to gate around the battlefield and is completely different than any other teleport effect in the game.  I guess I would really like to see a version of the rule that was more representative of this unique ability.  I know the precedent in Epic has been to avoid extra special rules but I just don't think this ability can be adequately represented without trying out a unique rule for it.

I think that the rule should be represented by allowing the formation to make a single gate move during an activation instead of a normal move and that this shouldn't be able to be used as part of an assault action (as per 40K version).

In the scope of an Epic battle I think it would be reasonable to place some form of distance restriction on it and allow one Gate move within the course of an action (not usable to assault of course).  Ie they could march; moving 15cm on the first move, gate jumping up to a max distance xcm on the second move then move 15cm on the third move.  My feeling is that their maximum move should be lower than that of a rhino mounted unit (for a march) probably slightly higher for a double.  Potentially a maximum of say 60cm meaning they could get 75cm on a double and 90cm on a march.  This would work in well with a restriction on the availability of transports (maybe a 0-2 availability on the rhino upgrade).

Fenrisian Wolves - I would consider move 20cm with Infiltrate (which they have in the 40K list with the extra scout move).

Storm Claw Bikers - by the 40K version would have infiltrate, may be over the top in Epic due to the distance they could move but could balance if the army had more transport restrictions - not sure about this.

Anyway, nice work so far, I don't want to sound too nit picky I am just really keen on seeing development so have my own ideas about how the list would/should play.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Space Wolves 13th Company
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:46 pm 
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Jet packs and the necron phasing maybe? Or just jet packs and teleporting in and out?

As Space Wolf Terminators don't use teleporters it leaves a hole in the army list these guys could fill...

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Chroma
 Post subject: Space Wolves 13th Company
PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:02 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Jun. 04 2008,19:46)
QUOTE
As Space Wolf Terminators don't use teleporters it leaves a hole in the army list these guys could fill...

I do believe the 13th Company should be a completely different army list from a "normal" Space Wolves list.

This is why I think they'd work better as an "ally" list, taken from the "One third" points for various Imperial Armies.

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Mark_Logue
 Post subject: Space Wolves 13th Company
PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:59 pm 
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This is why I think they'd work better as an "ally" list, taken from the "One third" points for various Imperial Armies.


Fluff wise I just can't see 13th company working closely with other imperial forces.  They are going berserk with the curse of wolfen and fielding chaos kit, the imperials would probably just try and kill them.

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ortron
 Post subject: Space Wolves 13th Company
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:00 am 
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So would people prefer I work on a Standard Wolves list, and develop a 1-3 unit type 13th coy formation that they could take as allies.

That way standard wolves are taken care off and there will be the option of adding a wulfen element to it if people so choose.

Chroma would this still help out with your eye of terror book?


My ideas for the space wolves would be less detachments than standard marines but the formation would be slightly higher in unit numbers. Also since SW in 40k must have one hero per 750pts? IIRC, then each maybe each detachment must have a SW commander.

I have a few ideas on there special units and will take note of those comments above.

What do you think of

Wolf guard = termies without teleport?
Long fangs = as 13th coy lists (comments on "fire control" ability?)
Grey hunters = 15cm AR 4+, CC4+,FF4+, Assault EA+1 (no range attack)
Blood Claws = 15cm 4+, CC4+,FF6+, Assault MW EA+1B
Blood Claw Bikes = SM bikes
Blood Claw LS = SM LS varients
Blood Claw Jump pack = BC as above but with jump packs & 30cm move (higher cost & limited)

Veh:
All SM Veh+
Leman Russ exterminator: 20cm, 4+, 4+, 6+, 1 x TL autocannon 45cm AP4+/AT5+, 3 x Hvy Bolter 30cm AP5+, Reinforced Armour.

Detachments                                   Upgrades

Grey hunters                                   Wolf guard, Bloodclaws, dreads, hunter, razorbacks, landraiders
Bloodclaw Bikes                               Landspeeder varients, Jumpack Bloodclaws
Long Fangs                                      Dreads, Hunter

Armour
(3-6 of landraider, pred, vindi & LR exterminator)    Hunter

Whirlwinds                                         Hunter
Thunderhawk
Strike cruiser



Allies
13th Coy (4-6 13th coy)                          Wulfen



What do you think of this basic setup? With force org done its then onto unit specifics
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ortron
 Post subject: Space Wolves 13th Company
PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 1:02 am 
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Also add to this,

A wolf scout formation, say 4 units, as Marine scouts but without Hvy Bolter and add plasma gun (15cm AP5+/AT5+) and maybe teleport?
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