Due to Wiki not being up at the moment so people can't get v3.2 and a few comments being posted/talked about over the weekend I thought I’d put up the new version and a reference sheet

Black Templars V3.3

Black Templar Reference Sheet

Till wiki is back up these links are not downloads but links to some free web space i didn't know i had.

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"Dyslexia is a Privilege, not a right"

Posted by TRC on the Specialist Games form
So. I have of course not got access to the pdf currently so will make some more comments when I get my mits on it again.

1/3 rule. Pointless. Saying 1/3 of your activations must be Tactical formations is exactly the same as structuring the list to be 1 core and 2 support. So restructuring removes that rule.

Do have some comments on how you do adding tracked transports but of course can't find the list so can't put them into words. Of course using a neopyte to get access to an extra transport space would boost their value.

Thunderhawk Transports. 4+ or 5+ save, don't care much, just affects the points I guess. However more concerning was 200 points for two 5+ RA, DC2 transports with admittably only two heavy bolters each. Having 4 tactical fomrations and 16 flying war engines may be too much for some to handle (especialy since you can trasnport the tacs with their rhinos and maybe a hunter or two), no matter how poorly armed, you can still assault stuff with them or use them as mobile FF support. I still believe they are better than a landing craft. The worse that can happen is a 1/9 chance of losing half the formation, at which point you don't land and bug out. A Landing craft costs 150 more, theres only one and you have a 1/12 chance of losing everything. At 4+ armour the points would have to be a lot higher (indeed they could be doing with being higher for the 5+ version as well comparing it the the thunderhawk and the landing craft).

However we discussed many options about restricting them, making them a sort of upgrade to a hard cap, but ultimately I reckon having a 1/3 Fleet/crusade assets section of the list stops to much abuse (with all spacecraft, thunderhawks and landing craft).

Emperors champ. For impact why not make him a model on his own (or maybe with two bodyguards) and buy him as a seperate unit? The attack ability is incredibly annoying. Why not have instead infiltrate and scout? (And his normal and MW attack). That lets you get deep into the enemy formation to do your challenge and you actually fight the enemy.

Neophites. You say they aren't worth taking. You could make them compulsory maybe? Adding one to a base tactical formation (either as an addition or as an extra unit). You could just remove them and have them as a modeling option (so one or more scouts on each stand, I would use 1st ed power armour)? Or finally incorporate them into the stand, maybe modeling it at 7 men and upping the CC? Problem of course is then being a better air assault option.

Certainly I see air assaults as the armies mainstay. Hard to comment for sure without the list but without spare transport spaces (there is a way to do this, I'll tell you how once I find the list again!) and knowing the potential points ratio for tac+neopyte formations vs assault/terminator formations relative to their close combat hits, but I'll look at it in a bit! Well, i can rember they are 25 points each actually, so 600 points gets you two thawk transporters, 4 rhinos, 6 tactical marines, 2 neopytes and one character (we'll say a chaplain to remove the champ), formation size 16. Thats 2 2/3 FF hits, 4 CC hits and 1/2 MW hit / 6 1/3 FF hits compared to a thawk and ass marines (size 10) getting 1 FF hit, 5 1/3 CC hits and 2/3 MW hit / 3 2/3 FF hits. Bigger formation, little chance of being all shot down and far better FF vs jump packs and the chance of getting a second chaplain.

And yes, the FW models are too big. They are definatively at least 8mm scale (maybe even 9 or 10), but certainly not 6mm.

Other concerns. We discussed the potentially for drop armies. A turn three drop would mean 5 12 strong formations (and 400 points for other stuff) hitting the enemy blitz and objectives. Probably worth trying out. Biggest problem here is an army with a spacecraft coming in turn three before you and winning the game unopposed!

And nothing else comes to mind at the mo.

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"Dyslexia is a Privilege, not a right"

thanks Hena i fixed the spellings,  and yes i'm sorry i didn't get to play againist you, bit i had to keep that date!

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"Dyslexia is a Privilege, not a right"

If you want to change the focus away from air attacks you could do one of two things. Option 1 make neophytes 3-6 as an upgrade (t0o big for air attack) or two make thunderhawks 50 points more and assault squads 150 points each (not affecting their air assault and making them worthwhile ground choices!).

Also, why no whirlwinds?

And is the Sword Brethren basically for air assaults or drops? With an average of 6 hits for 25 points less than two ass. marines 5 1/3 hits they pretty much are superior. Toss in a dread, chaplain and Emperors champ and its a hefty unit for 500 points plus the thunderhawk.

Attached is your army list simplified, the only change is to the air and core/support. Air is all in its own section and the 1/3 restriction is gone to be replaced by 1 core, two support. Oh and removed the transport special rule by building it into the army list, which also allows the extra transport spaces which I feel are essentially for a marine ground assault army.

Oh and on your reference sheet the Marshall shouldn't have Leader as you can't have two instances on the same unit.

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'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

And yes, the FW models are too big. They are definatively at least 8mm scale (maybe even 9 or 10), but certainly not 6mm.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

That wasn't my point E&C. I simply said they were not 6mm. They might scale exactly in whatever ratio to 40k, but it doesn't make them 6mm.

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

What does that mean Chris?

That '6mm' is really a sliding scale of half a dozen different scales, as defined by GW's early activities and set down forevermore?


Isn't it more true to say that FW's Epic models are '6mm scale' and SG's Epic models are 'Epic Scale'?

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Cut and paste from the web.
1:285 scale or 6mm figure size is a US Army scale introduced in the late 1960s, and used for wargames and some scale model dioramas. It is used in wargaming to depict large battles in a relatively small gaming area. This scale also corresponds to the new ZZ scale in model railroading.

Both scales are based on the 1mm = 1ft calculation that reduces the average 1.72m height of a Caucasian male to 5.7mm tall figure. "6mm" is therefore used as a rounded-up reference to the scale.

GW may or may not hold to it that well, indeed with the first space marines they probably had 1:300 (5mm) going on the size of the mk6 marines.

But its still the reference point and the FW stuff represents a big scale creep as far as I can tell, largely going by cockpit size.

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Anyway here is a list with a few changes, trying to shift the balance away from air assaults.

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

1:285 scale or 6mm figure size is a US Army scale introduced in the late 1960s, and used for wargames and some scale model dioramas. It is used in wargaming to depict large battles in a relatively small gaming area. This scale also corresponds to the new ZZ scale in model railroading.

Both scales are based on the 1mm = 1ft calculation that reduces the average 1.72m height of a Caucasian male to 5.7mm tall figure. "6mm" is therefore used as a rounded-up reference to the scale.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I make no claims for the SG stuff, but 'looking about right' is a better measure than a set scaling in my view if lots already is all over the place (case in point Titans, they would look bloody stupid if they were any bigger and even more unfeasable). It would work if the 40k models were the right size but I may be way off maths wise it looks like its done on the basis of the 40k stuff being 30mm, so 1:5 would make it 6mm. I guess one way to check is to take a comparable object (say an F-16 fighter, 49 ft 5 in (14.8m)) and see if it scaled.

Anyway, I've never quibbled about the scaling, just the fact they aren't really fitting the rest of the epic stuff which is supposed to relate to 6mm scale.

So back to the black templars?

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

This is just another thing that ticks me off about FW.

40K models are already distorted to be more dramatic (oversized hands, feet and weapons for starters) and fit the artistic sensibilities of the background.  The amount of distortion used is a direct consequence of the scale.  The idea of keeping the same distortion when reducing the models to a smaller scale as if they are being "true" to "the real thing" is just daft.

In short, they are dolls, not reduced scale models.

This blind adherence to 40K at the expense of the Epic scale aesthetic is just another sign to me that FW really doesn't care about Epic past what they can do to make a quick buck.

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Not that it has anything to do with the BT list...

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Neal

I like the idea of your shape for the list Chris, i've always thought the 1/3 of all formations having to be Crusaders an awkard way of putting it, this way works better.

putting the Space ships and all the Thunderhawks into the support section is good way of stopping the spam lists.

on the stat and points change you've put up i'm intersted and some of them might be a good plan for the future but for the moment i would like to change the list one thing at a time, this is mainly because i want to give people a chance to get a few games in with V3.3 before i post up a new version with a bunch of changes.


there are no whirlwinds or devastators in the list for one reason fluff no black templar would be see dead standing still and fireing a big gun when he could be charging into combat instead. it's also an easy way to keep the list a bit more assult orinataded.

Sword Breathren are in the list for a few reasons, a part of it is fluff another is that they black templars are ment to be a infantry heavy army but with two less normal formations based on troops than the base space marine list it seamed a bit odd to me so i put them in (in the wrong place at first)

and marshal leader fixed thanks

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"Dyslexia is a Privilege, not a right"

I think the biggest and most useful change is to up the Thunderhawk by 50 points and drop the ass. marines by 25. It does make a list less assault orientated without changing the overall cost of air assaults. The increase in cost for others is to balance the assault power in air assault of tacs and neophytes and the sword brethern.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x