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NetEA Marine list planned changes
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:33 pm 
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I thought there was also

Landing craft - +25 points
For all the reasons listed in the past.

Warhounds 275 each, 500 for two and the change to the marauder bomber.

Oh and a question - is a marine SC with only one leader now worth 100 points in an expensive 1+ army? Should he be 75?

Edit - and I am fine with no Demolisher Cannon change!


(Hena @ Apr. 05 2008,13:59)
QUOTE
Land Raiders
Land Raiders underperform and are overpriced against other races / units to the extent that they are rarely used - yet this is one of the most iconic units in the game
- FF improve to 4+
- Detachment cost reduce to 350
- Upgrade reduced to 85

Upgrade wise, 650 is still a better cost for a mech termie formation.

Cost wise 350 puts it very close to Pred Anihilators. Slightly worse speed but better armour and firepower.

Land Speeder Tornado
Suffers from lack of MW when compared to regular Speeder, usage pattern for both in main Marine list is still same so extra range and shot isn't that important.
- Upgrade to free


Still disagree.

Which would you rather? 200 points of tornado's (5 Assault Cannon, 5 Heavy Bolter, Skimmer, Scout, LV, 35cm move) or 275 points of Destructor's (8 Heavy Bolter, 4 Autocannon, 30cm move, AV).

Want to give it a bonus? Make it +5 instead of +10. As it is free it becomes a nigh compulsory addition for the extra range on a 4/1 split or as a 5 strong Pred/Dev replacement.

Its a unit that is new and not many people use, hence it being something of a dark horse.

Sniper upgrade
- Allow all scouts to get sniper ability at cost of 50

And its fair to say removes a tough modelling challenge!

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Irondeath
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:59 pm 
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I?m with TRC on the SC matter. 100 points is outrageous.

I fully agree with all of Hena?s suggestions as well.




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Dave
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:01 pm 
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I'm in favor of all of those and I am willing to give the Vindicator changes a test run.  However, I really liked the idea of a Sniper formation so the scouts change would be nice in my opinion.

I also think removing the Save from the Drop Pod and noting that it is not in fact a unit but a marker would be less confusing to new players.

Two other minor/cosmetic changes would be to change the Bike and Scout Datasheets to reflect the models.

Bike - Twin Bolters (15cm) Small Arms -
Scouts - Bolt Pistols (15cm) Small Arms -

Was there ever an official ruling on the Librarian?  Does he get both the CC and FF MW?  Or just the FF?

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Warphead
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:06 pm 
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Never really understood the fuss with the Demolisher cannon.

Is this kind of review planned for all army lists?
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:52 pm 
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Isn't that more to do with having an 85 point upgrade in a 25 point increment list? Its basically one of the following 85(100), 170 (175), 340 (350).

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:21 pm 
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Land raiders.

Disagreed. 85 points is too odd of a number.
I would rather see '175pts for two'.


Predators

Agreed, I don't think they'll be useful until they dip to 250pts though, but this is a step in the right direction.


Terminators

Agreed


Attack Bike

Disagreed. I think the way to fix attack bikes is to change the formation to being 5 attack bikes for 175pts, with attack bikes being replacable with normal bikes for 5pts each. Attack bikes simply aren't worth as much as a biker unit.


Land Speeder Tornado

Agreed. I believe that Chris' objection primarily looks valid because Predators are still overpriced at 275pts.


Warhound

Agreed.



Marauder Bomber

Agreed.



Landing Craft

Agreed.



Lack of Dreadnought change:

Disagreed, Dreadnoughts need some attention.


Sniper Upgrade:

No opinion



Vindicators:

Still overpriced at 275pts
Speed to 25cm - okay
FF3+ - Not justified IMHO. In addition with the speed increase this does make the Vindicator powerful in supporting firefights (As it can now reach them!)
Adding Walker - As with the FF and Speed upgrades, this makes the tank powerful in firefights.

Overall, you have applied *four* changes to the unit, which still leaves it overpriced by 25pts I'd guess, and the 'upgrade' cost of the Vindicator is left prohibitively expensive (Why take a Vindicator upgrade when for 10pts more you can now have an 85pt Land raider!).

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:15 pm 
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(Hena @ Apr. 05 2008,21:03)
QUOTE
Annihilators certainly are worth the 275. Destructors are near it. FF4+ helps in that sense.

Remember the 10cm countercharge!

With Destructors going to FF4+ vindies are now equal to them, with less countercharge. Without the FF3+ a destructor is superior in a FF!


Oh and there is another change I have always wanted to reflect how Epic was designed. I was always under the impression the unit stats were for scenarios, tournies and everything else, whilst the lists were for competitive play. One change I have always wanted that doesn't impact the list, just the unit, is Landing Craft transport capacity. I would like to see it be able to carry mixed loads of rhino and land raider hulls. Not sure how to word it though, there are examples in other parts of the board though.

This can go with minimalist changes as it effects existing armies not at all, and is largely for the 'other epic' - scenario play.

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Markconz
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:11 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 05 2008,19:21)
QUOTE
Lack of Dreadnought change:

Disagreed, Dreadnoughts need some attention.

Agreed. Do nothing and all the complaints and cycle of debate will all start up again. Compared to vindis there have not been postings objecting to this change since it was made.

The games we've used it in (both in Black Legion and Marine armies) the players liked it.

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Ginger
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:33 am 
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I like all the proposed changes, though I would probably put the warhounds above the terminators in order of priority.

Like others, I would really like to see the dreadnoughts changes included (well at least the 3+ armour), and would put this just below termies in priority.

I would also prefer the marauders changes above the remainder, but would not mind if they were left out together with the changes to the bikes, speeders, landing craft and snipers.

While I really like the possible Vindicator changes, perhaps they need some time to check so I would probably leave these until later.

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