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Rhino/Drop Pod Swap

nealhunt

Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:34 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

As this has been discussed multiple times recently, I think we need to aim discussion towards some sort of resolution.

Current situation: The SM Transport rules are funky. The wording of them make it so that, by my "close reading" interpretation the change between Drop Pods and Rhinos is a matter of army selection. Razorbacks "replace" Rhinos and are clearly a matter of army selection, so when Drop Pods "replace" Rhinos, that should be a matter of army selection as well.

Proposed revisions: I changed the wording as to how Razorbacks are purchased. They are simply bought. Then I inserted a sentence in the Transport rule that says Rhinos are counted up only after all other transport options are considered. Note that this also creates a minor change in that a formation can buy Land Raiders w/ transport capacity and then buy Razorbacks as the actual transport on top of that. Let me know if you think that's a problem. For reference:

Razorbacks
Add any number of Razorbacks, up to the number required to transport the formation.
25 points each

SPECIAL RULE - 6.3.1 Space Marine Transports
The Space Marines are a highly mobile army. Because of this, the points cost of a detachment usually includes enough Rhino transport vehicles to transport it and any upgrades that have been taken. Determine the number of Rhinos needed after all upgrades have been purchased. The number of Rhinos will always be the minimum needed to carry the formation...

===

The real question is what do we want for the SM list. Do we want them to be allowed to switch freely between Rhinos and Pods as a deployment option?

What are the pros/cons of each? Are there potential problems if we allow it?

Regardless of the decision, I intend to add clarification to the transport rule - either explicitly stating it's a matter of army purchase or explicitly stating last minute substitutions are allowed.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 pm

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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
Posts: 6414
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA

The mode of transportation needs to be selected as part of the army list prior to any deployment (i.e. they need to be written down). While the Rhinos and Drop Pods have no point cost associated with them, they are a selections nonetheless and switching one for the other is a big ball of cheese. Anyone who pulled this maneuver on me in a tournament would get more than a raised eyebrow, especially after they have checked out what I am fielding. It isn't just gamey - it is cheating. Tournament lists should be blind choices. If people want to house-rule it then let them.

Allowing this for the SMs would be a slippery slope, possibly affecting another list in the future. The SM list needs help, but not in this form.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:55 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

I'm with Moscovian here. Allowing this pre-game swap is gamey.

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Dave

Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:01 pm

Hybrid

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 9539
Location: Worcester, MA

I'll agree with Moscovian and E&C here in that it does seem gamey. However, just as some food for thought...

The SM are humanities finest. They have access to the best technology and have a huge strategy rating. In my mind that would translate to them knowing their enemy very well, their force deposition, locations and so on. When they engage the enemy it will be on their terms unless they are completely on the defensive.

Given that I think one can argue to allow the player to choose Rhinos or Drop Pods after the army list creation.

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:03 pm

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Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
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Location: Canton, CT, USA

I'm with Moscovian, too.

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Mephiston

Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:09 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:52 pm
Posts: 4262

So is chossing to put an eldar formation in a wraithgate gamey? Is chosing to teleport or garrison chaos chosen gamey? Is putting an orc warband in a landa gamey?

All can currently be chosen at game time and seems universally acceptable. I'm not sure how gamey this is.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:10 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
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Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

As far as I'm concerned, all the above should be chosen when writing your army list.

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Chroma

Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:16 pm

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
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Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Mephiston @ Sep. 20 2007,15:09)

QUOTE

All those things are specifically expressed as being allowed, so they aren't a problem.

The simple issue is this "When do Marines decide if they're deploying in Drop Pods or Rhinos?"

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Chroma

Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:18 pm

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Location: Montréal, QC, Canada

(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 20 2007,15:10)

QUOTE

As far as I'm concerned, all the above should be chosen when writing your army list.

E&C, you feel a Chaos player should decide at army creation whether their Chosen (Terminators) are going to teleport, garrison, or be deployed normally?

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Moscovian

Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:05 pm

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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:32 pm
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Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania USA

Mephiston, the one critical difference between the examples you cited and the drop pod/rhino issue is that your examples are matters exclusively of deployment. The drop pods have a considerable attack value and the rhinos increase the number of units in a formation and provide cover. Those are in addition to the deployment.

I don't agree that teleporters and such need to be written down as this is part of the game. The simple fact is that we wouldn't be having this discussion if the drop pods and rhinos overtly cost 5 points each. The thing is their cost is factored into the cost of the units, so they do have a value. Once you acknowlege that this becomes a no-brainer.

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Blarg D Impaler

Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:05 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 356
Location: Beavercreek, Ohio, USA

Current situation: The SM Transport rules are funky. The wording of them make it so that, by my "close reading" interpretation the change between Drop Pods and Rhinos is a matter of army selection. Razorbacks "replace" Rhinos and are clearly a matter of army selection, so when Drop Pods "replace" Rhinos, that should be a matter of army selection as well.

OK, so make Drop Pods a matter of army selection.

Instead of playing with the special rules just insert into the army list a zero point upgrade of Drop Pods. That way if the other player does not select that upgrade they can not use it. After all, players are not allowed to swap Attack Bikes for regular Bikes for free during set-up, why should they be allowed to swap Rhinos with Drop Pods for free during set-up?

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Tiny-Tim

Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:06 pm

Hybrid

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:32 pm
Posts: 4893
Location: North Yorkshire

I am a fan of allowing flexibility in to the SM deployment for two reasons. One, it gives a boost to SM armies by allowing them to be more focused on how they take on different armies and two, we would see more Strike Cruisers which would cause severe problems for hoard armies thus reducing their appeal.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:29 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

(Chroma @ Sep. 20 2007,15:18)

QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 20 2007,15:10)

QUOTE

As far as I'm concerned, all the above should be chosen when writing your army list.

E&C, you feel a Chaos player should decide at army creation whether their Chosen (Terminators) are going to teleport, garrison, or be deployed normally?

Well, it would make for a more balanced game...

Okay I rescind my statement, sometimes it's acceptable.

EDIT:
Blarg said it better than me.

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:36 pm

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Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 11149
Location: Canton, CT, USA

I like Blarg's solution.

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Ginger

Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:33 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 5483
Location: London, UK

I'm with Mephiston here that marines should be allowed to declare they are using Rhinos or Drop Pods before each game.

This sort of flexible deployment choice is in character with the Marines, plus this only available to a small part of their forces. Finally, while Drop Pods do give a considerable attack, the marines have lost one third of their formation size to gain it - and it is rather hit-and-miss because it has to be pre-plotted as part of Planetfall.

Dropping stuff to get into Thunderhawks etc has the same tradeoff of greater striking power for formation weakness and immobility - and you also have to buy the Thunderhawk.

Setting a cost for the transport is a bit of a red herring, because it is already in the cost of the formation. If you really want to do that, you need to drop the formation value accordingly - and even so, it does not solve the issue.

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