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Scout Sniper Upgrade
nealhunt
 Post subject: Scout Sniper Upgrade
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:54 pm 
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I'm going with the sniper upgrade that seems to be most popular:  "All Scout units in the fromation gain the sniper ability."

It seems from discussion that there was some split on how much that would be worth.

50 points?
75 points?
Something else?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Scout Sniper Upgrade
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:00 pm 
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50pts

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Chroma
 Post subject: Scout Sniper Upgrade
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:13 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Sep. 19 2007,16:54)
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It seems from discussion that there was some split on how much that would be worth.

The first question that needs to be addressed is whether the sniper is added to the Heavy Bolter ranged attack or to FF and/or CC as well.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Scout Sniper Upgrade
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:17 pm 
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I'm assuming Heavy Bolters only.

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dptdexys
 Post subject: Scout Sniper Upgrade
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:43 pm 
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50 points if the ability is only going on the normal weapon attack,
75 points if the ability is going to go on ranged and FF(not on CC)

so the stats would look like this with sniper added at 50 points

Type ? ? ?Speed ?Armour Close Combat Firefight
Infantry 15cm ? ? ? 5+ ? ? ? ? ? 4+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?5+
Weapon ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Range ? ? ? ? ? ? Firepower ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Notes
Shotguns ? ? ? ? ? (15cms) ? ? ? ? ? ?Small Arms ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???
Heavy bolter ? ? ? 30cm ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?AP5+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?sniper
Notes: Scouts, Infiltrators


and like this for 75 points

Type ? ? ?Speed ?Armour ?Close Combat ?Firefight
Infantry 15cm ? ? ? 5+ ? ? ? ? ? 4+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?5+
Weapon ? ? ? ? Range ? ? ? ? Firepower ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Notes
Shotguns ? ? ? (15cms) Small Arms ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?-
Heavy bolter ? 30cm ? ? AP5+ ?and ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? sniper
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? small arms ? ?
Notes: Scouts, Infiltrators
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Scout Sniper Upgrade
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:22 pm 
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The clarification I put in for the Sniper rule was ranged only, unless the datafax specifically states otherwise, e.g. Sniper on a small arms weapon stat line.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Scout Sniper Upgrade
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:54 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Sep. 19 2007,13:22)
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The clarification I put in for the Sniper rule was ranged only, unless the datafax specifically states otherwise, e.g. Sniper on a small arms weapon stat line.

Does this make sense? ?In WH40K to turn Scouts into snipers you replace their Bolt Pistols/Swords with Needler Sniper Rifles. ?You don't put a scope on the Heavy Bolter or anything like that.

If you are going to reflect the Needler Sniper Rifles in Epic I would suggest that the Heavy Bolter does not get the sniper ability but the Small Arms do.

For 25 points for the whole detachment

Type      Speed  Armour Close Combat Firefight
Infantry 15cm       5+           4+                  5+
Weapon              Range             Firepower                    Notes
Sniper Rifles         (15cms)            Small Arms        - Sniper
Heavy bolter       30cm                AP5+                          


Notes: Scouts, Infiltrators




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Chroma
 Post subject: Scout Sniper Upgrade
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:01 pm 
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Sep. 20 2007,16:54)
QUOTE
If you are going to reflect the Needler Sniper Rifles in Epic I would suggest that the Heavy Bolter does not get the sniper ability but the Small Arms do.

So the Scouts can only use the sniper ability in firefights?  

I don't think that's what was intended; if there was a restriction, I would've assumed that only the Scout's ranged attack was supposed to have sniper.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Scout Sniper Upgrade
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:04 pm 
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What if all scouts automatically came with Sniper, rather than having an upgrade?

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Scout Sniper Upgrade
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:21 pm 
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(Chroma @ Sep. 20 2007,12:01)
QUOTE

(Blarg D Impaler @ Sep. 20 2007,16:54)
QUOTE
If you are going to reflect the Needler Sniper Rifles in Epic I would suggest that the Heavy Bolter does not get the sniper ability but the Small Arms do.

So the Scouts can only use the sniper ability in firefights? ?

I don't think that's what was intended; if there was a restriction, I would've assumed that only the Scout's ranged attack was supposed to have sniper.

It seems counter-intuitive at first, but it makes sense after you think about it.

The Space Marine scouts are excellent CC units due to Infiltrate.

The reason why the Scouts are allowed to take Sniper in Epic is because in WH40K they are the only Space Marine unit that may take Needler Sniper Rifles (or whatever they are called now.)

The Heavy Bolter is never changed in any way to allow it to be used in a sniping role.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Scout Sniper Upgrade
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:24 pm 
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Or how about buying a sniper replaces the HB with a sniper rifle that happens to have the same statline plus sniper?

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thurse
 Post subject: Scout Sniper Upgrade
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:59 pm 
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The problem with FF snipers is that the -1 to armour save also affects AV and war engines.
Sniper should be kept for range weapons IMHO.

If sniping heavy bolters is a real problem, just do that cosmetic change :
Sniper upgrade :
- All units replace their heavy bolter with sniping rifles
sniping rifle : 30cm AP5 sniper

But is it really necessary? :) I would go with 50 points

EDIT : J0k3r, you were faster...
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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Scout Sniper Upgrade
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:38 pm 
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I think that Sniper should become a Weapon ability, not a Unit ability. But I agree, Heavy Bolter with Sniper is very equivalent to Sniper Rifles...
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Ginger
 Post subject: Scout Sniper Upgrade
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:55 pm 
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Given the clarification that the "Sniper" ability is Ranged fire only (not FF or CC), it is then irrelevant whether the ability is given to a unit (as an upgrade) or specified on the weapon stats.

I would say 50 points is the maximum for Marine Scouts upgrade - that would make them equivalent to 8 Eldar Rangers, which is reasonable given better CC, transport and TSKNF

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