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Dreadnoughts
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=10136		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  Markconz [ Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:25 am ]
Post subject:  Dreadnoughts
Ever since EA's release, people have been grumbling about dreadnoughts and what you can (not) do with them given their current limitations of use.

Many have argued that a allowing a dreadnought only formation is the way to proceed. Certainly there are examples of dreadnoughts being banded together in the 40k background.  However, others have expressed concerns that such any such formations should be extremely limited in availability to keep the character of the dreadnought concept. Others have argued that dreadnoughts are fine as is.

So the question for this poll is should a dreadnought only formation be allowed in the Codex Astartes list as follows?:

Dreadnought formation: 4 dreadnoughts for 200 points. Upgrades allowed - Commander (to represent a venerable dreadnought).
Author:  pixelgeek [ Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:07 am ]
Post subject:  Dreadnoughts
I'm not sure how this fixes the problem with Dreadnoughts. You'd have a bigger group of walking targets... unless you air dropped them at which point it seems to me as if the idea is unbalanced.

And it does seem quite out of character with the background material as well.
Author:  Markconz [ Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:11 am ]
Post subject:  Dreadnoughts
I imagine drop pods could be necessary. Yes should have gone in marine section - oops.  (Edit - has shifted).
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:16 am ]
Post subject:  Dreadnoughts
Currently a Dreadnought Detachment can''t have Dropods because it has no Rhinos to exchange :D
Author:  Markconz [ Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Dreadnoughts

(BlackLegion @ Jul. 28 2007,08:16)
QUOTE
Currently a Dreadnought Detachment can''t have Dropods because it has no Rhinos to exchange :D

Yeah but it is easy to fix with something like the following if it is thought to be a good idea:  

"In addition, you may choose to replace a detachment?s Rhinos with Drop Pods, and dreadnoughts may also be transported in drop pods.If you do this then the detachment will enter play in a Drop Pod."

I don't see why Chaos gets to do it but not marines. In a 40k game even a standard marine force can have 3 dreads coming down in drop pods if they want (or 6 if a trait army with the ability).
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Dreadnoughts
I've tried the 200 point Dreadnought formation in a dozen games.

It turns out, they're not worth their points cost, they get tracked down and shot up (And with only a 4+ armour save, they die prety quickly).

If Dreadnoughts were adopted as a formation, I'd start them at 175pts for testing purposes, and try spamming ten formations of them to see if that's broken.
Author:  Markconz [ Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Dreadnoughts
Interesting, thanks for that info E&C. 175 may indeed be more appropriate by the sounds of things.
Author:  Chroma [ Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Dreadnoughts
I feel that Marines should be able to swap out two Rhinos for a Dreadnought for free, and then be allowed to buy 1-2 additional Dreads for a formation.

Then you could have a Dev formation with 3 Dreads, 4 Devs, and a Hunter, and it would be an excellent garrison.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Dreadnoughts

(Hena @ Jul. 28 2007,15:41)
QUOTE
Why I don't like the dread formation in drop pods is that it is then the only use for it (as it won't survive much on field). Is that it again creates the same problem as the Scouts (and suggested Assault marines) create. Meaning you can get cheaply a lot of detachments into drop pods and pod the enemy out in first turn.

Then charge a premium for the Drop Pod.

SG did a whole lot of silly when they made Rhinos & Drop pods free on the theoretical conceit that they were equal in power.
Author:  CAL001 [ Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Dreadnoughts
I voted no, my preference is for Chroma's idea.

Cheers
Cal
Author:  Blarg D Impaler [ Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Dreadnoughts

(pixelgeek @ Jul. 27 2007,22:07)
QUOTE
I'm not sure how this fixes the problem with Dreadnoughts. You'd have a bigger group of walking targets... unless you air dropped them at which point it seems to me as if the idea is unbalanced.

And it does seem quite out of character with the background material as well.

Quite the opposite actually, dreadnought formations do go with the background material.  Granted, that background material is over 15 years old, but GW has written at least one fluff story told from the perspective of a dreadnought inhabitant as he and his squad(?) of 4 dreadnoughts are on patrol.

Allowing dreadnoughts in their own formation is only part of the solution.  They need to have transportation of their own, and not just drop pods.  I have advocated that Land Raiders have their stat notes modified to show that they can carry 2 regular infantry, 1 Terminator, or 1 dreadnought.  The idea of transporting dreadnoughts was around in Rogue Trader but dropped away after 2nd ed. came out.

This will not only help the dreadnoughts, but it will also help the Land Raiders.  You know, the Land Raiders?  The best vehicle that the Space Marines have that nobody wants to take?

I say we kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

1) Allow dreadnoughts to have their own formation.
2) Allow dreadnoughts to be transported in Land Raiders.
3) Allow dreadnoughts to have Land Raiders as an upgrade, along with commander, Hunter, and Vindicator.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Dreadnoughts
This will not only help the dreadnoughts, but it will also help the Land Raiders.  You know, the Land Raiders?  The best vehicle that the Space Marines have that nobody wants to take?

They don't want to take them because as with most Marine vehicles they're very overpriced.

Different debate. :)
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