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Vindicator
Nothing new 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
Upgrade FF by 1 to 3+ 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Change weapon to Thunderer Cannon and give +1 EA 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Something else, see below 52%  52%  [ 16 ]
Total votes : 31

Vindicator
ortron
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:46 am 
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After reading all this..

My Thoughts

Leave the weapon alone, yes it may need a change but for now I can't see us getting any where with it because if affects different units across 2 or more lists and the name change idea, which i favoured, has also seemed to hit a brick wall.

A speed increase to 25cm I think could be justified, and would make the tank a usefull addon to other SM dets.

Walker I'm not sold on because a big dozer blade will only help so much, to make it better offroad you would need things like better suspension, lower ground pressure, better clearance etc.

What needs to happen is some actual play testing and a little less heated discussion. Myself and CAL have been using demolishers at 25cm move for some time and it has worked well.

I would push for the minior change to 25cm move and leave it at that for a bit, then test and adjust.


Finally if people are dead keen on changing the Demolisher Cannon I would ask for AP3+/AT3+ ignore cover, rather than the MW4+. I understand that in 40k the stats for penetrating with a Multimelta are similar and all that but i think the better chance to hit/less to kill, would represent the inaccurate nature of ordinance in the 40k universe. By that i mean that with a multimelta you either hit & Kill or you miss. With ordinance you can often miss but still  clip a target with the massive blast, but to a lesser extent. I think the AP3+/AT3+ ignore cover represents this.

Anyhow thats my 2 cents.
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mageboltrat
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:58 am 
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ER... I don't think you would have noticeable a speed difference between a predator and a vindicator in Epic.

Predator On Road 68 kloms/hour : Off Road 50 Kloms/hour
Vindicator On Road 64 kloms/hour : Off Road 48 Kloms/hour

So if a predator moves 30cms a Vindicator moves 28.8cms. I don't think this is the be all and end all though, if it plays right at 25cm, then the rules should be 25cm. All I'm saying is the background really doesn't suggest it is significantly slower than other rhino varients.




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:25 am 
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I think there has been some playtesting - but of so mny varients how comparable is it (guess which config I was trying).

Vindicator
To make equal to pred it needs
+5cm (so 25cm speed)
add small arms, ignore cover to the Demolisher (that is not an extra attack mind)
Thick rear armour (for urban ops)
Walker (from the big dozer blade)

Then pred - medium tank
Vindicator - urban assault

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Soren
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:58 am 
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Proposal:

AP3+/AT3+ ignore cover, Speed 25. No other changes.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:09 am 
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Strip walker. No need that it should have it.
Every tank can have a dozer blade. It's only the Vindicator model of the current range that has it modeled  on.
E40k Rhino chassis based vehicles has parts for dozer blades in the blisters.




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:16 am 
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Walker means the tak is 'the' marine tank for urban areas and hunting infantry. It may not have the speed and counter charge of a pred, but it certainly can hunt the little buggers in cities.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:29 am 
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The Leman Russ Demolisher and the Thunderer fulfill the same role. So acording to your argument should they have Walker too?

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Markconz
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:34 am 
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Agree with BL. No to walker.

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Reaver
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:52 am 
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I also think the tank just needs an increase in speed to 25cm. All the other suggested increases are too much - unless you want to start fiddling with points values too.
Regards,
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:58 am 
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The thunderer I've never used (nor seen published, its just our conjecture currently) and the demolisher in my experience is attached to companies that aren't fighting through urban area. In that role it provide nasty short/medium firepower on turn 2. I've never had any need to venture into cover with it.

Vindicators on the other hand I have used in cover, as an independant formation they can move in to support infantry and further as part of the scarce marine AV contingent need cover saves more than Leman Russ.

Just 25cm on its own isn't enough - the predator then remains better at shooting and assault.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:02 am 
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(BlackLegion @ Jun. 05 2007,10:29)
QUOTE
The Leman Russ Demolisher and the Thunderer fulfill the same role. So acording to your argument should they have Walker too?

They don't quite fill the same role, since the Vindicator has a big rough-terrain dozer blade on the front.... smash down a wall and fire into the breach, rather than fire at the wall then fire into the breach.

That make any sense? :)

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Soren
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:10 am 
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(Reaver @ Jun. 05 2007,10:52)
QUOTE
I also think the tank just needs an increase in speed to 25cm. All the other suggested increases are too much - unless you want to start fiddling with points values too.
Regards,
Reaver

Disagree. This tank is not worth 75 pts as an upgrade, even if you increase the speed to 25. When I look at the inferior Marine tanks, this one is the most useless one. Slows down the detachment, low armor save (for a tank), only one shot, expensive and no extra usage despite of increasing detachment size. If I take a Razorback it wins against a Demolisher in speed and Firepower all time...for only 1/3 of the point costs.

So I love to get 3 Razors for one Demolisher.

Say it as it is: This tank is simply useless in the configuration we have now on the list.

Soren

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:13 am 
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A problem with all the marine armour in attaching to infantry is 3 razorbacks beats them all!

(Or rather 3 razors and a rhino beats 1 vindy/pred and 2 rhinos.)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:16 am 
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Say it as it is: This tank is simply useless in the configuration we have now on the list.


Agreed.

But then, I say that about predators too.

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