Note I'm not entirely in favour of just a points change. 325 means you lose 100 points elsewhere - does that mean the typical marine list gets more inflexible? I think the point where they just disappear from marine lists is very fine and possibly too knife edge to be done with points. I can't see 2 warhound lists being done much if they start costing 100 points more. I want to see them as an option like other parts of lists, not priced out of usefulness.

Agreed TRC. At least part of the issue is the lack of viable alternatives in the Marine list for the roles that the Warhound fulfills. So changing the points is only part of the issue - we also have to consider what they do (and by implication what the Marines apparently need).

So as a hyperbolic example, if the marines could take a 6x RA Pred formation for 275pts, I would suspect that Warhounds would not be so prevalent.

Isn't a Warhound priced at 300 points with a 0-1 restriction for a single model enough?

Would that appease all sides of the fence perhaps?

I'd say 0-1 with 275 would be reasonable.

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I agree that 0-1 restriction and/or increasing the cost could well be part of the answer, but the issue then becomes whether that actually 'nerfs' the Marine list by removing a 'core' element of the current strategies - or whether the top players can find alternative strategies that are equally as good. So do we also need to consider other changes to reinforce the choices?

The other point is that a solution to Warhounds for the Marine list may not be appropriate for IG - and also whether these solutions ought to be mirrored in the equivalent Chaos lists with the Ferals, and even considered in the Eldar . . .

So, we potentially end up with 0-1 for 300-325pts in Marine lists, perhaps only 275-300pts ea in IG, 0-1 Revenants 350pts in Eldar etc. Equally we may need to amend the Preds to be 5x for 275pts etc to provide a suitable alternative choice (Note this is only posed as an example )

I think it's generally agree that the multi-Warhound Space Marine builds are the strongest lists out there.

Meaning that *only* multi warhound builds will be affected, therefore leaving the rest of the list's balance completely untouched.


Predator Annihilators are viable choices for their points cost***, and do just fine at 4x for 275pts IMO (I've used them lots at that price).
The problem is that Warhounds are simply better than the Predators for the same price, not that Predators are flawed. That can be fixed, by degrading their abilities, or raising their points cost (Further).

***Predator Destructors *are* flawed, but FF3+ should fix that. :-)

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I think this misses my point about 'balance' completely. I agree that in general the Marines are fairly well balanced, but my concern is that since we agree the Warhounds seem to be a staple of the top lists, restricting or removing them may well 'nerf' the entire list by reducing it's power.


Again, I think this misses the point entirely. With the greatest respect, I have only heard you repeatedly announce that Predators are fine at 275 - indeed I have never heard of anyone else that has tried this - and in the other thread on Predators there seems to be a general suggestion that they need some further changes to make them viable.

If we effectively 'nerf' the Marine list by 'nerfing' the Warhounds (and I am not clear whether this will actually be the case), I am suggesting that we may need to boost the power of one or more of the alternatives to counter-balance the effects (Preds, LR, Land Speeder etc).

Finally I would really welcome the input of the top UK players here (you know who you are ) and the other regular winners worldwide to inform the debate rather than just re-iterating our restpective points ad-nauseum.

Surely it only "nerfs" one particular build, thereby bringing the multi warhound lists down to a level of effectiveness roughly equal to, for example, multi Predator Detachment lists.

At 325pts each, a double Warhound list that currently finishes at 3000pts will top out at 3100pts, meaning the Marine player will have to drop 100pts (3.3% of his army list).

A typical move in points across an entire army list of 3.3% should be a fairly mild "nerf", all things considered.


I'm one of those, on the occasions I bother to turn up; I have a string of non-existent 4th place trophies. :-)


Pretty sure that the other thread's consensus is that Predator Annihilators (Lascannons) are fine(ish) and Predator Destructors (Autocannon & Heavy Bolters) are trash.


Just to zoom in on this, Predators have been at 275pts for years both in the NetEA and the EUK lists. Everybody who's used Predators in the last 2 years has tried them at 275pts... they just seem to find Warhound Titans to be a better bang for the buck!


Marines have already had a string of power boosts over the last few years:
- Characters removing 2 BM's instead of 1.
- Counting half BM's in Engagements.
- (EUK) The "Drop Pod Swap".
- All tank formations reduced in price.

It is my contention that they may have left the Marine list in need of a mild 3.3% nerf. :-)

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As I said, I would welcome other input rather than repeating positions ad-nauseum

Spoilsport. :-)

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There should not be a single choice whose removal or modification can 'nerf' the Marine list. With the possible exception of Tactical Squads.

If weakening Warhounds nerfs the list excessively, than that is a flaw with the rest of the list.

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As I said before I would only start using predator instead of warhounds if for the price of 2 warhounds I could get 2 formations of predators and another activation. Increasing the warhounds price by 50 each just changes my list from having a tactical BTS to a devastator and dropping a character.

Another option to suggest would be moving thunderhawks+LC to the air+titan third so then the 2 thawk 2 warhound tbolts combo isn't possible.

Regarding overall power we need to look at who the list is designed for. I'd suggest that in the hands of a top 5 player it is the best list (though not overpoweringly so) but in the hands of a less experienced player then the SM, in any list form, are the hardest to use - this is born out in tourney results, taking a SM list (however optimised) doesn't suddenly improve a players position from about where they normally finish. A nerf on the warhounds might be ok for the upper echelon players but is it going to just make it even harder for a new player to use.

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Any idea what element it is that does that?

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The requirement of the Epic Space Marine list to be used with a great deal of tactical acumen.
It can't be used in an attrition or ranged gun line style like most other lists, it demands a very specific play style that rarely comes naturally to a newbie (Who, more often than not, are coming from 40k).

Also, newbies tend to do stuff like picking Warlord Titans, making their task even harder.



Steve:
Would you consider that Predators (Annihilators) are still too expensive to be a worthwhile choice?
Adding 50pts to Warhounds and at the same time dropping the cost on tank formations another 25pts should given enough points in a typical list for an extra (light) activation like Scouts.

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Yes, but it's evidently better at being used with tactical acumen than the other lists are. Which is what I find interesting.

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