I do not mind the debate. It has not devolved into slander so I think it is still healthy.

*by the way - Frogbear just got a new haircut - can you tell?*

There are a few ideas running through my head and a question or two so here goes:

=======================================

1. Tarantulas (let's just state that they are MV0 for the sake of this). Now they are 150 points. What do people think of the idea that they are either
a. Always count as being on overwatch OR
b. Do not roll initiative to enact Overwatch
This little rule would kind of make sense and (with option a) allow the unit to be priced up by about 25 points. The issue that I see is that is they are allowed to 'stand and shoot' and then later get charged, is the rule confusing?

========================================

2. Titanhammer Terminators and FF 0. OK, I can live with this however they are then not worth the full points with such a weakness. Now I have a neat (well I think so) idea to change the Marine rule away from selecting Rhinos and transports pre-battle and have the rule that:

--> Imperial Fists purchase their Terminators and then decide whether they are standard Terminators or Titanhammer Terminators before the battle, after seeing the opposing force and before table side selection.

It does not make sense to me that Imperial Fists would chose the Titanhammer variants vs a Skimmer force, and that a siege force would always choose such a strategic formation for it's best use. In doing this I would wish to price both variants of Terminators the same. With current stats of 2+CC with EA+1MW, I am not sure that it stacks up. So I am proposing making the stats 4+CC with EA+2MW. In effect this produces:
- 6.667 hits vs 6 hits with MW hits being 3.33hits vs 4 hits

Otherwise there is the option of 3+CC with EA+2MW which produces (against 2+CC & EA+1MW)
- 6.667 hits vs 8 hits with MW hits being 3.33hits vs 5.336 hits

Now which version is worth the full 350 points?
- 2+CC EA+1MW
- 3+CC EA+2MW
- 4+CC EA+2MW

========================================

3. AA Tarantulas. OK. I see the stats. I guess they can be an upgrade to normal Tarrantula formations (replace one per x points). It does bring up 2 questions:
a. How much are they worth? - I believe they greatly increase the formation's usefulness
3. Do the Hyperios Launchers have any adverse effects for the Hunter upgrade and can both coexist in the one list?

========================================

I think that is it for now. My print server just 'kicked the bucket' and my printers are offline so I am going to get them back up and running and then get back to this

*sometimes Frogbear really hates the selfishness of technology to decide for itself when it will not work*

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

Chroma:



I am aware of this. However, this does not preclude an alternate interpretation to facilitate their utility in Epic.



And that's fine. But I'm fairly sure they're both more useful, easier to balance, and a lot more in keeping with the rest of the Epic with some ability to move. And if the list does not go that way, then life will go on.



Possibly. But a mobile variant is not impossible, and might be a better choice from a gameplay and balance perspective. And that's all I'm saying. And all I have ever said.

Why this bothers some people so much, I'm not entirely sure.

frogbear:


Depends. Are they LV? If they're LV...you have immobile light vehicles. That seems overpriced.

If they're INF, then I'd say that seems...decent.

Honestly, I think you'd be better off trying to get them to 175. That feels a lot less popcorny for some reason.

Oh: obvious thing to do with Titanhammer Terminators. Drop the EA, give them TK. Possibly 2+, possibly 3+. But I guarantee you it'll be noticeable.

EDIT: Oh, and I like the whole "choose before deployment" thing.

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread

TK? My, just when I thought I had covered all bases...

Well let's see what all of the mathematically minded come back with. I am sure we can settle on something.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

For a seige list, movement isn't neccessary. See Baran Gotterdammerungs and Blitzen. That said, both these formations either do not have accompanying units that can move, or have transport. I would support an immobile Tarantula if the formation is Tarantulas only. Tying down Tac Marines to the formation seemes unwise.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Well, Titanhammer terminators are supposed to carry a vortex grenade in each squad... That'd be a one-shot TK attack, but that's really micro scale stuff.

Not in favour of special rules for the tarantulas or terminators. Test them first, then if there's a problem look for solutions.

What about the Thunder Hammers? Five Thunder Hammers is a lot - I'd say one MW TK attack isn't an unreasonable representation of them - especially when you consider the specialized training of the formation.

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread

A direct 40k translation of them might give them first strike, but they're no stronger than power fists, definitely not TK. 2+CC is pretty damn awesome on a teleporter.

It's more the quantity of them (yes, I realize it's only one Thunder Hammer than an equivalent squad's power fists, but I'm also thinking of the combined impact of the Thunder Hammer's shaking effects) and the additional training that I would think added to it. And that vortex grenade you mentioned.

And 2+ TK would be overkill, I'm sure. 3+ TK, OTOH, maybe not.

What's the explanation for Thunder Hammers shaking things up, anyway?

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread

My main concern is that Titanhammer terminators with a CC2+ and FF0 may not be worth 350 points purely due to the lack of FF.

If you fail the SR or Init check, any FF combat will have these broken. The 350 points is just not worth the risk. They drop 3 pips of FF and shooting (negligible I know) for 1 pip in CC and a batter chance at the MW. They just need a small boost and the CC4+ EA+2MW is small enough to not cause much grief. Otherwise, standard Termies are a better buy purely due to having the 3+FF for protection purposes.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

If that "debate" would have kept going, I was going have to break it up with my "I like Boobs" joke.


Nope not confusing. I like the Overwatch rule. Didn't even cross my mind.


I don't think that's unreasonable. They are dedicated H2H after all. I do like the TK idea though. Makes sense since you have a formation of walking tanks carrying one of the most destructive hand held devices in 40K lore. That's a lot of love.

I also think Titanhammer should be a buy-able option and leave it to the player to decide what he/she wants in their force.

We have a saying in my office when something goes wrong..."It always comes down to printing!"

350 points spent on Titanhammers with a FF0 to go up against a Skimmer army is ridiculous. Especially when we are talking about a siege force that I am assuming (I hate assumptions - sign of a lazy mind), that they have strategic advantage to receive an attack.

In plain English:
- Terminators are present.
- The enemy arrives
- A quick reconnaissance is made to determine what enemy they face
- The terminators (the pride of a chapter known for it's specialty in defending any siege) pick their weapons of choice to take on the enemy

...and before it is brought up, I would rather not make mixed formations.

I would think that with the goal of the force and how it is to operate, the idea of choosing Terminator fit-outs at the time of the battle is a reasonable idea for the force, and only because it appears to be a signature element of this chapter above all others. In order to do this, I have to ensure that the points costs for the two variations are the same. With that being the case, the Terminator purchase gives you the option to use the formation best suited to the battle.

It is only an issue really due to their higher points costs. If they were a cheap formation, then you just accept the dumb luck and burn an activation. Not for something as important as the Terminators are to this force which lacks a certain mobility.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

Very few armies are 100% skimmers. 80%, sure, but you'll still have 20% of the army that you can hit with the Titanhammers.

My personal inclination is not to have a special rule, though I could be swayed by popular opinion.

Remember that they have an Inv Save too, to help compensate for the loss of their FF/Shooting.

I wouldn't mess around with TK.

If CC 2+ isn't good enough, maybe make their base attack MW. So then they'd have CC3+, with 2 attacks, both of which would be MW. That'd be sweet.


I would prefer the former rather than the latter. The former would also require a special rule to say that they're not an activation as such and don't get an action test during the turn, but simply are a kind of "passive garrison" that can only:
A- Shoot on overwatch.
and
B- Automatically rally in the end phase without needing to pass an inititative test.

A bit like a minefield that shoots, but which can also be killed. That'd sure prevent popcorning!

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I'm not stating one way or the other here about their cost, but all I can say is sure they may get attacked by skimmers in later turns but them's the breaks for a completely CC formation and the trade off of a higher ability IMO. You get to dictate what they assault by teleporting a 2+CC, SR5 formation into the situation you choose. That's a pretty powerful option even with FF0+.

I looked at a similar formation type for Wolf Guard but most people said keep the normal stats. You obviously have to consider that instead.

Hmm so similar to how Tau Drone turrets might have been...? <runs away cackling>