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Dark Angels

 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:16 pm 
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I tend to agree with Zombo and the others here. Termies always teleport or air-drop into position, where their role is 'take-and-hold'. What seems to be proposed here is to improve their assault ability. These could be ridiculously powerfull when used with 2x THawks to form a repeatable air-assault - ditto for a 3rd turn teleport on the Blitz.

As to being the subject of assaults, I agree that FF0 would make them more susceptible, but often 4x FF3+ does not actually produce many kills now, so reducing this to 0 kills is not necessarily going to make that much of a difference. Their 4+RA armour is much more important is preserving them.

I am not even sure that reducing their firepower is that important given that is their secondary role - how many times do you actually fire a formation of termies in a game?

So I have to agree that they would seem to need other means to balance them; increased cost, restricted numbers, amended delivery mechanisms etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:23 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
I am not even sure that reducing their firepower is that important given that is their secondary role - how many times do you actually fire a formation of termies in a game?

When the damn panzy SW player runs away from them...


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:32 pm 
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He who fights and runs away lives to run another day . . . . Lol :)


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:53 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
I think that special rule is utterly, utterly broken.


Each to their own I guess. Much like transports not being taken till after seeing the opponent's list? I could go on but what is the point...?

Others seem to like it.

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They can teleport and have SR 5; if you let your opponent do this you deserve to lose.


That is quite an unfair statement, and I am sorry, but I am not even going to bother defending my stance when 'deserve to lose' is an arguement.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:31 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
zombocom wrote:
If I had a choice between normal termies and termies with 2 MW attacks, I'd pick the CC ones every single time, even if they had no FF. They'd be ridiculously better.


This is where I disagree. The FF3+ is a guaranteed defence with normal terminators. Coming up against either a skimmer force, or a force that can assault you with a clipping assault is too risky to take FF0 terminators. They are no-where near worth the same points due to this and the CC2+ does not give you the required MW hits to tip the scales to make it a viable choice.

Even with the CC3+ and 2xMW hits, I am not confident that I would not take the standard terminators (purely due to defence) - to combat this, I have included a special rule to be able to pick which termies you can take after seeing the opponent's list (as they are the same point values).

In effect, all an opponent has to do it clip a FF0 formation to break it, then clip it again to wipe it out. That is ridiculous for 350 points going in blind to a battle.


Not at all, its a straight metagame choice. Its like taking a formation of shadowswords and a battery of deathstrikes. 700 points saying any enemy WE will be warmly welcomed. however you have to risk that against meeting a speed freek skorcha horde.

As for the assault - assuming the terminators have their chaplain, have blast markers (say they failed to activate) and are attacked by a fresh bigger formation with no blastmarkers - unless that formation does damage, or double outnumbers the terminators, they only have +2 to the roll.

Balanced against that formation being a mean and nasty thing against everything it is optimised to fight (90% of enemy units).


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:45 pm 
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Stats should be the same across the lists. They simply aren't that different.

Point costs/relative value is probably something that can be worked out. That said, it's just "probably." Clearly, deepstrike options for CC termies are far more valuable and the point costs might end up being complex.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:32 pm 
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Ok, added in the terminators. Use whatever stats are current, I can't imagine they would be worth less than 100 points with either stat suggestion. Is this then, once the assault terminator stats are agreed pan lists, satisfy everyone and can get some more testing before being locked into the army book?


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:50 am 
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I have a CRAZY idea for the Dark Angels!

Firstly, this should only effect the Ravenwing as they are the iconic element of the Dark Angels IMO. The Deathwing are nothing to write home about.

So what is it?

What if the Ravenwing could make a normal move after winning combat, much like the Eldar do? Would that not encourage the use of the iconic element of the list?

This came about after I asked myself "why would I play this list?". It is the question I feel is not asked enough of variant Marine lists. If the combat principle can be repeated in the vanilla Marine list, then there is no need for a seperate Chapter list. However, if you can make it play differently, such as the idea above, now that would be 'choice'.

Thoughts?

BTW: Teleport Homer. Is this really needed? As they do not scatter, it just seems redundant and a rule for the sake of a rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:55 am 
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I've though about a million DA buffs. However it all results in the army dropping below a viable activation count. If you think this can be done without affecting that, I'm all ears but currently the best suggestion is rugs garrisoning tactical alternative formation which makes them play extremely differently.

I like the teleport homer as its pretty much a cost neutral implementation representing the ravenwings role is to find the fallen then call in the big lads.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:30 am 
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Why not just adopt a GW view and make them more powerful for the same cost. hey, you can even make up a fluffy reason as to why. That way, everyone will play them! ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:45 am 
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GW has never, ever made DA more powerful for the same cost.

Less powerful for the same cost, maybe...

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:50 am 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
GW has never, ever made DA more powerful for the same cost.

Less powerful for the same cost, maybe...

Sadly...

The First Legion is always the crappiest of the Big 4 :-\


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:46 pm 
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Well if the DA needs a certain formation to be more powerful to be competitive but this formations is acutally the same price or even cheaper than its less powerful non-DA equivalent then i have no issues with it.
There is no reason that the same unit has to be the same cost in every (variant) list.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:58 am 
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Those comments aside is the list ok to go forward?

I've had a short 2000 point game with it which didn't have the facility to 'spam' (sent in bulk to a cruse ship off Mexico apparently) formations.

I haven't tried the Extra titanhammer terminators but feel the upgrade cost of 100 points is fine for the 2 stat lines under discussion (2+CC+1EAMW and MW3+CC+1EAMW). A formations impact then for 500 points is either 3 3/6 + MW 4 1/3 or 2 4/6 + MW 4 2/3.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:26 am 
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frogbear wrote:
Firstly, this should only effect the Ravenwing as they are the iconic element of the Dark Angels IMO. The Deathwing are nothing to write home about.


See I see it the other way around or even being Equal. I mean the Deathwing knows and are the biggest part of "Hunt for the Fallen" if this list is to represent that and No Allies then we should focus on making the DW great!

TRC,

I don't think the Assault Termies should be called Titanhammers. There Assault Termies, a mix of Thunder Hammers and Lighting Claws. Or just Lighting Claws and have IF have just Titanhammers(Thunder Hammers). That's a Hena call I think with input from IF Sub too.

I also think the DW 4-6 Stands with a mix of standard and assault, in 2 tho. Ie 4 Standard, 2 Assault OR 4 Assault, 2 Standard OR 6 Assault OR 6 Standard. Ideally I would like to see maybe 8 stands but that might not work.

The RW I think is fine but they should not be the center spot light in a "Fallen Hunt"

I would like to see Sniper Scouts like FB put into the IF list. To show moral breaker to scatter enemey troops allowing DW to strike at their Target (Fallen).

Ironwing I like but I don't think it follows the "Hunt for the Fallen" theme well. But it does support No Allies. I would prefer to see a Ironwing Formation (Mix of all amour) and dropping standard tanks formation options. I also don't see Ironwing upgrade as helping the list but hurting. Dreads and Hunters should be there own upgrade, while Vindicators, Preds and possible Land Raider and Variants being Ironwing upgrade.

AA: Having 2 Hunters I don't think cuts it especially if other lists like IF can have it too with Navy support! It might work if again they were a separate upgrade and maybe if a AA T-Hawk variant was used. We have one in another list right?

The Ares is something I would like to see even if it just in the appendix. I mean if were making Achilles be a viable LR why not the Ares!

And change from Slow Fire would be amazing! NetERC!!!

Besides that I like the list ;D


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