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Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:40 pm 
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- Formations may discard units to comply with alternative deployment requirements.


This should not be allowed, IMHO.

If you want to garrison or fly in a T-hawk, state in your armylist that your formation has not elected to take Rhinos.

This would be so much easier with Neal H's proposed 'scrapping the transport special rule' mods. :)

However, a thought has just occurred to me regarding my option #1 above:- Do we feel that, by requiring the Marine player to specify when he is using Drop Pods, he is slightly disadvantaged as his opponent can then take steps to counter this in his deployment options?

Not really. By the time you get to the deployment stage, your opponent invariably knows that you're using Drop Pods anyway.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:35 pm 
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So E&C, you obviously prefer option #1. Fair enough :)

Have you tried option #3, or seen it attempted?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:00 pm 
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(Ginger @ Oct. 18 2007,12:40)
QUOTE
Option 2
Marine formation transport must be specified at army selection time, but during start-up, formations may discard units to comply with alternative deployment requirements.

I believe this is the way the rules as written define the situation.  I don't have a problem leaving it that way.

To be fair, I have a hard time seeing how a last-minute swap could be abused by a Marine player.  The list Biggles/Ginger put together with maximized theoretical deployment options had a lot of "wasted" points, regardless of the option exercised.  In effect, it paid for its flexibility.

That said, there are 3 non-balance objections:

1) It's flat out fiddly.  Juggling all the options and the if/then stuff is a chore.  Explaining it to the judges and/or your opponent is a potential problem.

2)  It seems most people think this "feels" wrong, irrespective of play balance.  Perception is important with regard to the quality of the game experience.  I think part of this problem may be a general sense that a player doing this is being somewhat inconsiderate in forcing his opponent to deal with a bunch of fiddly stuff based on rule minutia.  When someone gets into that level of granularity, you just expect some sort of "Gotcha!"

3)  It sets a precedent for other intricate combinations of army composition and deployment options.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:28 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 18 2007,13:40)
QUOTE
- Formations may discard units to comply with alternative deployment requirements.


This should not be allowed, IMHO.

If you want to garrison or fly in a T-hawk, state in your armylist that your formation has not elected to take Rhinos.

I know you don't like this, but it does have an inherent limitation.  With the exception of Rhinos in the SM/CSM lists, transport options are just too valuable to consider leaving them behind.

For example, even Land Transports in the L&D list, which are just as cheap per unit as Rhinos, make up a much larger portion of the formation's points and abilities.  It's not feasible to consider dropping 60 points of Land Transports out of a 260 point formation.  No deployment option is worth almost 25% of the formation's point costs.

Rhinos are only ~10% of the formation's value, possibly less.  That is a level at which a variable deployment option might be feasible.  Even CSMs, with a lower per-unit cost for the infantry, has a high enough expense ratio that it changes the calculations about dropping the Rhinos "on the fly" during deployment (at least in my opinion).

In contrast to last-minute pod/rhino switches, this is less fiddly.  It's much easier to explain to the opponent and easier for the opponent to "track" (for lack of a better term) with regards to formulating strategic plans.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:31 pm 
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Neal, didn;t you say over at the SG forum that you (and LordI) felt that the swap was a matter of army selection and not deployment and therefore would be disallowed by the current rule?

I know many people think that SMs should be able to trade out Rhinos and Drop Pods as part of deployment. I have no objection to that in principal. I just don't think it's allowed with the rules as currently written


Maybe I am reading your most recent posting wrong but it looks like your flip flopping on this.  And points #2 and #3 are the big ones in my book.  I can handle fiddliness on occasion.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:00 pm 
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Rhinos are only ~10% of the formation's value, possibly less.

With respect, I believe that Rhinos are of great value as a utility multiplier, it's the relative inexpense of Marine transport options like Strike Cruisers  or Thunderhawks that make them seem so... disposable.




So E&C, you obviously prefer option #1. Fair enough :)

Have you tried option #3, or seen it attempted?
Nope, the guys in my gaming group are mostly anti-beard, and those that are don't play Marines... as an army Epic Marines don't really attract power gamers :D




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:41 pm 
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Mosc:  You're misreading it.  Those aren't contradictory.  They just emphasize different aspects (pod swap v leaving units behind).

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:17 pm 
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(Ginger @ Oct. 18 2007,12:40)
Option 2
Marine formation transport must be specified at army selection time, but during start-up, formations may discard units to comply with alternative deployment requirements.


I believe this (referring to discarding units or swapping) is the way the rules as written define the situation.  I don't have a problem leaving it that way.
...compared to...
I know many people think that SMs should be able to trade out Rhinos and Drop Pods as part of deployment. I have no objection to that in principal. I just don't think it's allowed with the rules as currently written

Okay, I must be stupid then.  When you have a chance please help me reconcile this.  I am sure you have an explanation, I just don't understand it as is.

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Sytoru
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:23 pm 
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My reading of what Neal has said would indicate a slight typo in the quoted portion of Neals reply. Read it as "trade out Rhinos for Drop Pods" rather than "trade out Rhinos and Drop Pods" and things should make more sense.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:50 pm 
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Mosc:  Marine formation transport [Rhinos or Pods] must be specified at army selection time, but during start-up, formations may discard units [drop only, no substitute] to comply with alternative deployment requirements.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:00 pm 
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Can you show me where in the rules it says you can leave off part of your armylist in order to garrison?

Show me where it says I can select Storm Troopers, upgrade them with Valkyries, then drop the Storm Troopers...


Lame formation, yes, but seemingly allowable under your interpretation Neal... I need to be shown explicitly worded text that allows you to drop units from your formations before battle at will.


*plans an army that contains eight Assault Marine bases upgraded with chaplains and put in a Thunderhawk* :D

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Chroma
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:02 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 18 2007,20:00)
QUOTE
*plans an army that contains eight Assault Marine bases upgraded with chaplains and put in a Thunderhawk* :D

I hope you're not fighting Necrons... those Pylons will see to your Chaplainhawk!   :D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:12 pm 
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Awww. :)

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Ginger
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:38 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Oct. 18 2007,17:00)
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That said, there are 3 non-balance objections:

1) It's flat out fiddly. ?Juggling all the options and the if/then stuff is a chore. ?Explaining it to the judges and/or your opponent is a potential problem.

2) ?It seems most people think this "feels" wrong, irrespective of play balance. ?Perception is important with regard to the quality of the game experience. ?I think part of this problem may be a general sense that a player doing this is being somewhat inconsiderate in forcing his opponent to deal with a bunch of fiddly stuff based on rule minutia. ?When someone gets into that level of granularity, you just expect some sort of "Gotcha!"

3) ?It sets a precedent for other intricate combinations of army composition and deployment options.

1) ?I think you may be overstating the 'fiddlyness' here. Having actually done this in a tourney environment, I agree that trying to sort out an army with flexible options in it takes time (and is a kind of masochistic fun as well). But it is no harder for the umpire (who checks the army totals, not how they are being deployed). Explaining it to the opponent was very easy - I laid out the army with all the Ground transport, and then grouped together the spacecraft and its troops to one side explaining the limitation of units, removing Rhinos and providing a drop pod model where needed. In effect, I was going througn the deployment process in the book, with a kind of running comentary with my opponent as I did so. The whole process took less than 2 minutes tops as there were only 2-3 formations that took to drop pods in any game

3) ?Equally, I do not really think this sets a precedent, or at least I am sure that the rules can be worded to prevent one if necessary.

2) ?However, I have to agree that perception is the main issue here. I do not think anyone else has tried it or thought it through enough to see past the "gotcha" - that there must be something inately wrong in there somewhere, which is best avoided. So for now, until people pluck up the courage to try this in friendly circumstances, it seems that the Marines will gave to survive without this capability.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:45 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 18 2007,18:00)
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Nope, the guys in my gaming group are mostly anti-beard, and those that are don't play Marines... as an army Epic Marines don't really attract power gamers :D

Which ironically, is part of the reason behind the suggestion in the first place. :) ?However, as our paths are unlikely to meet in a UK tournament setting given your apparent aversion to them, this is probably of little consequence. :;):

Seriously though, we will have to get together ?to have a friendly game some time - and I promise not to pull any "Biggles" manoeuvers - well at least not without prior warning anyway :D ?:p

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