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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 356
Location: Beavercreek, Ohio, USA
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I beg to differ. First and foremost compare the Vindicator and the Predator Destructor (with the FF to 4+ upgrade). Both are the same stats except for the weapons and the speed. Are you going to try to tell me that the demolisher cannon with an AP3+/AT4+ and the ability to ignore cover is the same as an autocannon and 2 heavy bolters?
There is a difference in open ground. While Demolisher can kill one unit, Predator has chance for 3. Count it any way you like the Predator has advantage (and lets not even go to Annihilator and AV targets). Only time Demolisher is getting better over Destructor is within double and against cover targets. Pure double is still for Predator (3*6+ vs 4+), but pure cover can be given to Vindicator (combination of both of course is for Vindicator)
First off, when you assume average dice rolls (like you always do in these kind of discussions) the fact that there is a difference in number of attacks doesn't matter, you take the number of attacks and factor in the chance to hit. More attacks means nothing if they can't hit.
OK, Let's run the numbers:
First, the Vindicator -vs- Predator Destructor
Asuming 1 INF target, range is not a factor, no modifiers to-hit. (no cover)
Vindicator: AP3+ = 67%
Predator Destructor: 2x AP5+ = 3x33% = 100%
OK, Predator Destructor wins versus Vindicator on killing an infantry stand. Of course, this doesn't take into account the innate ability of the Vindicator's Ignore Cover special ability.
Asuming 1 AV target, range is not a factor, no modifiers to-hit (no cover), and average dice rolls.
Vindicator: AT4+ = 50%
Predator Destructor: AT6+ = 17%
The Vindicator wins versus the Predator Destructor on killing an armored vehicle. Of course, this doesn't take into account the innate ability of the Vindicator's Ignore Cover special ability.
Notice that the differences in ability to kill a single unit were the same, 33%. So, firepower-wise the weapons are the same. EXCEPT: The Vindicator has a special ability that no other Space Marine weapon has in the game - Ignore Cover. Does that make up for the extra 15cm range on the autocannon or 10cm speed difference? That's hard to tell, everybody is going to think differently. I think so, but I'm sure you will say otherwise.
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Vindicator -vs- Predator Annihilator
Asuming 1 INF target, range is not a factor, no modifiers to-hit. (no cover)
Vindicator: AP3+ = 67%
Predator Annihilator: 0%
OK, Vindicator wins versus Predator Annihilator on killing an infantry stand. As a matter of fact, the Predator Annihilator is incapable of killing an INF unit at range. And, of course, this doesn't take into account the innate ability of the Vindicator's Ignore Cover special ability or the better FF rating.
Asuming 1 AV target, range is not a factor, no modifiers to-hit (no cover), and average dice rolls.
Vindicator: AT4+ = 50%
Predator Destructor: (AT4+ = 50%) + (2xAT5+ = 2x33% = 67%) = 117%
The Predator Annihilator wins versus the Vindicator on killing an armored vehicle. As a matter of fact, it is a sure kill on one and a 1 in 6 chance of killing a second vehicle. Very Nice. But, of course, this doesn't take into account the innate ability of the Vindicator's Ignore Cover special ability or the better FF rating.
Again, notice that the differences in ability to kill a single unit were the same, 67%. So, firepower-wise the weapons are the same. EXCEPT: The Vindicator has a special ability that no other Space Marine weapon has in the game - Ignore Cover, has a better FF rating, and the Predator Annihilator is incapable of killing INF at range. Does that make up for the extra 15cm range on the weapons or 10cm speed difference? Again, that's hard to tell, everybody is going to think differently. I think so, but I'm sure you will still say otherwise.
What is a normal battlefield? An open, flat plain with some hills and groups of trees scattered about? Tell that to the guys who fought in Stalingrad, Normandy, Berlin, almost all of Vietnam, Lebanon, Panama City, or Baghdad. There hasn't been such a thing as a normal battlefield since troops stopped lining up in ranks and conducting volley fire.
I mean the normal battlefield in a GT. That isn't meant to be full of terrain, but moderately so. You can tip the balance for Vindicator in special situations, but in those cases GT lists are perhaps not something you will use entirely, is it. So for normal GT battlefield Vindicator is in disadvantage. I want the Vindicator to be balanced for those conditions.
Point made. The safe thing to do would be to hedge your bets and take a single detachment of Vindicators with none attached to any other detachments. You maintain flexibility of other units and the Vindicators can act dependent upon the terrain present.
Truth be told, I'd rather take the infantry heavy, assault-oriented Space Marines in a city fight than in an open field fight. Why? Because of all those buildings to provide cover, reducing range down to about 15 - 45cm.
Of course. But you need speed to create crossfire and support fire situations. Marines fight undernumbered almost always. And speed (combined with good initiative and high SR) allows them to counter this by concentration of firepower. For that speed is essential. 5cm can mean a lot, 10cm can be disasterous.
I disagree. Al vehicles are going to be encumbered by the need to maneuver around buildings. Yes, the lower speed will be a hindrance, but the Ignore Cover ability will pay off in spades against enemy INF in buildings.
But that's why we are having this argumentation. To hammer out what is perceived by others and pool the info. I don't mean to say that the stat that posted is the final by any means. I can drop things from it (and that FF ignore cover or walker could easily be one) if it becomes too good. However I'm not giving up on that 5cm move as I see it as essential to prevent it from being very little used like the Dreadnought.
The reason why the Vindicator may not be used much is not because it is inferior, but because players are not willing to bet that it will have a good enough to chance to be used due to terrain. If you get a clump of terrain that can hide infantry those Vindicators will be worth their weight in gold. If you get an even dispersal of impassable terrain then the Vindicator becomes a liability.
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I shot a Deathstrike Missile and destroyed an enemy titan in my pajamas last night. ?How it got into my pajamas I still don't know...
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