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Marine Suggestions
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:08 pm 
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I don't know, in an environment where all motion is purely newtonian 1st (ie with no gravity or aerodynamics confusing things) using Thunderhawks makes a little more sense to me.

In space, there would be a minimum practical size to any combat craft before your firing platform becomes too unstable, or lacks the power to be effective. The 40k universe does not have 'star trek' or 'star wars' style space ships which bank to turn as if there was an atmosphere to push against...

In the atmosphere however, the Thunderhawk has utility as a dropship, and a weapons platform, but I can't see it as an interceptor of any particular use.

As to hard-burn rockets, presumably it only carries enough fuel for a single planetfall & climb back to orbit, though that's just how I'd design a ship of that type, maybe they have infinitely-usable neutron engines, I dunno. :D

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:32 pm 
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Marines I believe have fusion power for their vehicles (they get the most up teched stuff) so in theory thats a lot of power.

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dafrca
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:50 pm 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 04 June 2006 (12:32))
Marines I believe have fusion power for their vehicles (they get the most up teched stuff) so in theory thats a lot of power.

Or even if that is not in the Fluff, we could include it now.  :devil:

I mean, I am a DWWFY person.  :cool:

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:08 pm 
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Anyways, my point stands that the background for 40k has never, ever mentioned space marine air-2-air combat versions of the Thunderhawks, and it would be anillogical use of the craft when that is what the Imperial Navy specialises in.

Though I havn't read any of the novels, I'm sure I would have heard of such a craft at some point.

Eh, I could be wrong, but I doubt it, I've got a nerd-like instinct on these things.




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dafrca
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:17 pm 
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Quote (Evil and Chaos @ 04 June 2006 (13:08))
Anyways, my point stands that the background for 40k has never, ever mentioned space marine air-2-air combat versions of the Thunderhawks, and it would be anillogical use of the craft when that is what the Imperial Navy specialises in.

Though I havn't read any of the novels, I'm sure I would have heard of such a craft at some point.

Eh, I could be wrong, but I doubt it, I've got a nerd-like instinct on these things.

I think you are right. In fact that is why the original list had the Marines using the Navy Air Support.

However, why does it have to be "official" and fluff verified before we think about doing it?

If we waited for the fluff for everything then many of our efforts would be useless.

One of the bad and good parts of a SciFi background is that it is never really finished. We can list all the tanks or planes or TO&E for WWI or WWII etc. We know what all the weapons used in Bosnia were.

But with 40k, the background is always open to adjustment through fluff additions. One paragraph in a white wolf or rule book and we have a new formation, unit, etc.

dafrca

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:42 pm 
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Quote (dafrca @ 04 June 2006 (21:17))
We know what all the weapons used in Bosnia were.

Ha! You just think you do - Nato used lasers/nukes/ortillary/something else and it was all kept secret by the military industrial complex!

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:24 pm 
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On the topic of 'ability to space-launch'... The Space Shuttle launches at a maximum velocity of roughly 29 m/s/s. 3 Gs. There are really only two reasons for this: Power and safety. Safety is the bigger concern, we could build stronger rockets which launched it faster but we'd risk injuring the astronauts. Marines are much much tougher then humans including in G-Force Resistance. Their own ships might well be able to reach 4-5 Gs of constant acceleration, roughly 39 m/s/s-49 m/s/s. Comparatively an F-16s acceleration at take-off is roughly .7 G or approximately 7 m/s/s. If the Thunderhawk can launch itself to space, and return from space, under it's own power then it should be able to run to ground almost any other standard ship it fights against. As the acceleration and drag from launch and re-entry are FAR worse then the acceleration or drag in a flight environment. Admittedly it likely won't be turning extremely fast, depending on how it's built, but there's no reason the ship COULDN"T be built to take a 9G turn without tearing the wings off (We can build fighters today which do, and the Thunderhawk should easily outstrip anything a modern aircraft can do). Also remember that a THawk Interceptor might not just be a THawk assigned to be an interceptor. Imagine a THawk which had all that nice space for putting people in filled instead with power generators and secondary engines mounted on the hull, larger wing-span  and possibly even secondary wings to make it more maneuverable. Just because the chasis is a THawk doesn't make it a THawk doing something else, the Whirlwind is much the same way. It's a Rhino-chasis with no transport capacity which mounts a heavy multiple rocket launcher. Same chasis, totally different battlefield role.
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bloodman
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:27 pm 
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uhhh about this "figther" varient of the thunderhawk.

just allow the thunderhawk annilator to be used in the codex list.(if you dont remember it just look at the BT list in the vault)

its a thunderhawk gunship. ive allways seen thawks as more uber vtol aircraft of doom and fill a role closer to the black hawk than an f-16. and the anilator is like a gunship varient of it(ie circling the LZ shoting everthing that moves and is not the good guy)

this also gives marines a MW outside of titans and engagements.

heres it's data sheet

THUNDERHAWK ANNIHILATOR
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
War Engine,
Aircraft
Fighter-bomber 4+ Na Na
Weapon Range Firepower
Annihilator Cannon 45cm MW2+, Titan Killer (D3), Fixed Forward
2x Twin Lascannon 45cm AT4+/AA4+, Fixed Forward
Twin Heavy Bolter 15cm AP4+/AA5+, Right Arc
Twin Heavy Bolter 15cm AP4+/AA5+, Left Arc
Notes: Reinforces Armour, Thick Rear Armour

it is listed as a 50 pt upgrade for a thunderhawk




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dafrca
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:38 pm 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 04 June 2006 (13:42))
Quote (dafrca @ 04 June 2006 (21:17))
We know what all the weapons used in Bosnia were.

Ha! You just think you do - Nato used lasers/nukes/ortillary/something else and it was all kept secret by the military industrial complex!

Are you sure it was NATO and not the MIB?  :alien:

dafrca

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bloodman
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:50 pm 
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just a thought it might be interesting to give the Thawk annilator the support craft special rule like the manta and have it always on the board(cause gunships tend to stay on station depending on fuel to support the troops). this also makes it not so uber deady because it could not CAP with those lethal FxF lascannons. cause it looks like it could snuff out a bomber formations and even eldar figthers with little to no risk.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:11 am 
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Quote (bloodman @ 04 June 2006 (22:50))
just a thought it might be interesting to give the Thawk annilator the support craft special rule like the manta and have it always on the board(cause gunships tend to stay on station depending on fuel to support the troops). this also makes it not so uber deady because it could not CAP with those lethal FxF lascannons. cause it looks like it could snuff out a bomber formations and even eldar figthers with little to no risk.

I'd rather not see the Support Craft rule become a standard... While attack craft DO tend to hang around, most don't have the capacity to stay 'hovering' for very long. Usually an attack craft will come in, bomb a target and pull out. It might not return to base, but it rarely stays around over the area very long. In fact, a Thunderhawk is unlikely to be over a board-sized area more then a few seconds, 10-20 seconds tops if they throttle it down fairly heavily. If they slowed enough to allow stationary standing I suspect they'd crash. Think of Support Craft as not quite like aircraft hanging around but more like REALLY powerful skimmers. Extremely high-powered anti-grav systems allow them to hang around on the field for long periods of time. The only thing I can think of as a similar unit in our times are helicopters. Which can fly 200-300 meters over the surface and use missiles and heavy machine guns to lay down supporting fire. Attack craft do 'hang around' but don't typically hang around right over their targets.

As far as the lascannons go it'd be unlikely they could shoot down more then one aircraft. And the Eldar aircraft would normally just laugh at them if they only get within range of lascannons. 2x 4+ to hit, then the enemy gets RA 5+ to save against any hits.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:53 am 
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I believe the chap doing the black templars has seen teh error of his ways and is splitting it into two versions - the bomber version (big gun) and the fighter bomber version (not so well armed).

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bloodman
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:03 am 
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what do you guys think about making the thawks vairents available to other chapters?(ie a gunship varent with a larger gun annilator and a F-B version with out the maine gun but with more AA and no transport. mabye replace the main gun witha twin-linked hunter missle system.)

come to think of it i dont think a incepetor version is fluffy because the SM are not tasked with air supperiory but rather just use aircraft that are very durable to go throught it. but still like making the annilator vairent usable to all SM. for fluff reasons and the fact that i want to feild a SM without warhounds damn it

EDIT again....man i cant spell




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:54 am 
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The main reason the Black Templars get the THawk Annihilator is their total lack of titans and allied aircraft. I like the idea of a Thunderhawk Interceptor style thing, it's neat. But a THawk Annihilator is a wickedly insane weapon system for someone who can ALSO take Titans. Imagine a Marine player with 2 Annihilators and a Warlord! Sure it's 1350 points. But that's 3 TK D3 attacks which hit on 2+. And on three very durable formations. Two of which can get anywhere they need to be, semi-instantly.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Marine Suggestions
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:09 am 
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Played two games tonight - good results for marines on balance I reckon.

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