Thinking out - If vulnerable to engagements could IF trenches/fortifications be Inspiring? Could make up for the almost inevitable outnumbering bonus and act like ig comissars...

Possibly but I'm loath to invent new rules until I've exhausted every other opportunity...

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

okay, updated OP with V0.2 list, mostly correcting glaring errors and fixing the busted bastion upgrade

I'll be playtesting this a couple of times over the month, other playtests appreciated!!

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

Looks to be a good enhancement to the prior version. I have worries about the version of the hyperios you're using
45cm seems rather excessive for the size and number of them you can field. Couple that with AA4+ shuts down the air game i think.
IF Version
Hyperios Platform LV 0cm
6+ 6+ 6+
Hyperios Launcher 45cm AA4+ Expendable, Automaton

Old IF, Raptors Versions
Hyperios Platform LV 0cm
6+ 6+ 6+
Hyperios Launcher 30cm AA4+ Expendable

I'm not hip on the Automation rule (think it was devised in the Squat lists, no?). The only thing comparable to this is the Hunter, which admittedly is mobile and even longer range, still costs 75 each. I tried to limit this powerfull AA in Raptors to a single Hyperios launcher in a defenses upgrade formation that consisted of 3 Tarantulas with an add on for +50 for the single Hyperios.

Now I will come clean that I've NEVER been a fan of dedicated AA formations as opposed to a unit/upgrade that adds an AA unit to another. I think they're prone to shenanigans. Basically I'm saying I'm biased so take what I say with a grain of salt. I'd rather see something like

Defense Platofrms
4 Tarantula Platforms 100 points
-Add 1 Hyperios Platforms 50 points

OR
3 Hyperios Platforms 150 points (<= at least)


The tying of platforms to scouts is somewhat inspired though again, they're core so it's not much of a limitation, esp. when they're a cheap activation normally taken.

That being said, the Bastion having a longer ranged version is good as it represents the superior command and control abilities of the fortress and the objective it represents.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

fair enough, I think 30cm is token AA at best though, if you compare the hyperios to a hydra formation for example, they're static (no flak-rushing) and are a bit worse, shooting stat wise, you're also limited by the number of scout units you take, plus they're competing with other formations for the 1/3 points for air, titans and fortifications

they're also useless against any kind of ground formation, and die like flies to almost any kind of attack

I think they're okay as they are, I plan on using them quite a bit in future, if they shut down the air game, then I'll limit them further, if you cut them down to 30cm then they're pretty easily avoided.... I'd rather drop them to AA5+ as they're one of the few sources of AA in a list which needs it more than regular marines I feel

Given that the formations in this list are generally quite expensive and heavy on the upgrades, I don't forsee scout-spam being a huge problem... if it is, I'll drop it to EITHER a tarantula formation or hyperios to cut it down further

Also they should be int2+.... will edit the list to reflect that shortly

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

okay I slept on it and you're probably right Jimmy, I've uploaded a new version with hyperios platforms at 30cm range, I've kept the 45cm on the bastion for balance reasons more than anything....I've also added that tarantulas and hyperios are int2+ to the notes

I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

Trenches can work I think, it helps to place them close together so that infantry can support each other in an engagement. Two parallel lines of trenches, one just behind the other can work well. Maybe the trenches could provide a 3+ save to SM infantry?

There are gun emplacements in the DKoK list that provide a cover save for vehicles. Perhaps the same could be used here to protect transports and attacking vehicles? They could have cover but still be able to move out should they choose.


There are batteries of Thunderfires in 40k actually. I don't see a problem with a highly complex gun requiring a Techmarine to operate and load it?

There's a Techmarine model that comes with each cannon, who carries and loads the shells in using a modified servo harness specifically designed for this:



Techmarines aren't rare, but are pretty common in SM chapters - every Stormtalon or Stormraven is piloted by a Techmarine. Land Raiders often have a Techmarine in too.

It wouldn't make sense to have a Techmarine upgrade when the formation has 4 in already. Either abandon the idea or what you could perhaps do however is make it a 0-1 Master of the Forge upgrade instead - the Master of the Forge is a chapter's chief Techmarine (with it's own 40k rules) and there's a 40k apocalypse formation consisting of 3+ Thunderfires and the MotF. If you go down this route you must make the upgrade 0-1 in the army though, a chapter only ever has one MotF.

I get that, so why aren't you lobbying for thunderfires to have a MW CC attack? after all a techmarine carries a power axe and has a whacking great servo arm on his back.... I've also added an invulnerable save to the Achilles, which gives it an unfluffy save against destroyer weapons

I get the reasons, this is for game balance reasons, and as I've said before, in my approach game balance trumps fluff in all respects I think forward garrisons could do with a leader, and playtesting has supported this, along with input from Steve54 and dptdexys who have both faced the list and agree that it merits inclusion. Adding chaplains is a little tedious and a bit expensive however, plus I don't think the chaplains hang out with the thunderfires that often, let's rename him to 'techmarine overseer' to differentiate him from the vanilla techmarines who do everything

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

Nah, wouldn't be appropriate. Where 's the power axe on that techmarine exactly? The servo attachments on it's back have guns on and it's other ones are holding shells so wouldn't be electrified or combat useful.

I'm sure the techmarine couldn't possibly have put his power axe down somewhere while he faffs with his iPad..... and heaven forbid he drop the shells and use the two massive hydraulic grabber arms as weapons if attacked, especially you know, if they're as good as extra normal limbs, like all the fluff says...

what you're basically saying is that a thunderfire techmarine != a normal techmarine in terms of kit... where is the problem?

but yes point taken, I'm including the techmarine character for balance reasons, I personally don't have a problem with a 'boss' techmarine walking around supervising the others and helping out, he doesn't need to be the master of the forge, who is doubtless doing an important job like driving the battlebarge or the damocles rhino, or how about the upgrade represents extra techmarines, servitors, field repair equipment etc, over and above the normal one techmarine per thunderfire?

that's the awesome thing about a game of abstraction like epic, if one can spin that a brand new special tank sergeant character means a librarian can drive around in a predator, I'm sure we can agree that the 'techmarine' upgrade can represent some extra dudes rather than a single guy?

and after all, if the thunderfire dude doesn't have his power axe and can't do anything other than load and fire the gun, an extra techmarine could wave his power axe around menacingly and give advice/help to the others surely?

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

I've never read anything indicating that techmarines were that common, also I understood that thunderfires were able to operate unmanned and used for perimeter defence when marine numbers/situation dictated - surely having to have a techmarine standing beside everyone defeats that purpose

If they come in batteries surely that means each thundefire doesn't that indicate they can operate without a techmarine unless each battery has a group of techmarines?

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

I think I've explained it perfectly well enough, the techmarine upgrade stays

to give a real world example, I'm an engineer, I sometimes run bits of kit, I sometimes build bits of kit, I sometimes repair bits of kit, when I'm running something, I don't drag my toolbox, scope, function generator, PSU or anything else along, because I don't need it, when I'm repairing something, I usually need all that kit so I bring it

in the same way, if thunderfire dude has been tasked with 'point gun, shoot gun, reload gun' then he's probably busy doing that and hasn't bothered bringing his screwdriver set along

it also doesn't need to be a superior marine, maybe the upgrade represents a junior techmarine who is there to help out where needed, he can still whack stuff with his power axe, and mind-meld with some servitors, and always carries his sonic screwdriver

unless a game balance reason comes up that shows it's way overpowered, it's staying

the foot is officially put down

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

One way you could add techmarines without ruling out them already being on each thunderfire might be having a 'ranked' techmarine as the upgrade. An electropriest or astartes equiv whose specific role is to support other techmarines as an add on. I don't have strong feelings either way, just wonder if that helps resolve two different points of view on one solution.

_________________
AFK with real life, still checking PMs

my niggle with that is that everyone knows what a techmarine is, I'd never heard of an electro-priest until you pointed it out

it's a very minor naming issue which has no overall effect on the list or the balance thereof, I don't see a problem with adding more techmarines to formations containing them

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

Seriously, who gives a damn if it's called a techmarine or a smurf??! Does it make a difference in the list development?

Sorry if i'm rude but some of the disdcussions on theese list threads just feel like they're taking up space and time.

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam