So the problem is Warhounds then.

And I'd say IG armies are more likely to operate on their own than Marine armies.

the favourite arguement touted by the other half of the forum is that the marine list is only supposed to represent an airborn insertion (ie: a lightning strike operation on enemy command structure.)
so you cant really have it both ways.

i think marine armies should be able to take titans for two reasons:
1) titans are cool.
2) titans are cool. and marines do fight along side them from time to time

however, i think marine armies should fight with titans less often than the imperial guard do, and certainly not 'virtually all the time' as currently seems to be the case.
I also think that "titans" in this case refers to battle titans more than warhounds. I'd be pretty OK with warhound packs becoming a "0-1 per a battle titan" choice.

marines should be able to have titans when rocking a primarily ground based army, but not when all other elements are airborne ("we mighty marines have initiated a lightning strike upon the enemy command, using rapid response vehicles and airborne tactics. this rapid response air strike will take place one week from now, once a few titans from the even-more-stuffy-and-withdrawn-than-us mechanicus, can make it into position.")
marine armies are like the evangelista's of the imperium. "we dont get out of bed for less than 2 warhounds"
poo.

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Maybe the marines are using their superior mobility to reinforce the Titan Legions on a critical point on the battlefield?

Imperial Guard is by necessity supported by the Navy, since otherwise they can't even get to the fight. The entire reason Space Marines have their own ships is because they go off and take care of business without needing to involve the sluggish juggernaut of the Munitorum.

As far as Epic goes, as Simulated Knave said the Naval assets are the only way in which Guard can have any air support at all. The fact that Space Marine lists are 50% more likely to take Titans than Guard tells us three things:
1) All armies have need of durable ground formations,
2) Imperial Guard has access to decently durable formations,
2) Space Marine ground formations are significantly inefficient compared to the Warhound.

The first is an intrinsic part of the game. The second says that the Guard has a decent balance between organic and allied formations. The third point is where this conversation arises. In order to make Warhounds less of an obvious choice (and lower their percentage of inclusion) either the Titan needs to become less efficient, or Marine ground formations need to become more efficient. I think the best plan is to split the difference somewhat. Since the Warhound is currently the most efficient option, lowering it directly will unnecessary penalize the list as a whole. Increasing sub-optimal choices doesn't increase the power of the list, it just makes Warhounds stand out less amongst their competition.

There is an argument to be had that simply increasing points doesn't necessarily change much, if the adjusted price is still worth paying. Likewise, decreasing the cost of sub-optimal choices doesn't necessarily make them better choices, it just means you might be able to squeeze in another activation. The current unit that I think most suffers from this is Tactical Marines. Fluff-wise, they should be the most present unit in the majority of armies, as a Codex chapter has 440 Tactical Marines in it (not counting any 1st Company Veterans that would be represented as Tacs in Epic) and yet it's rare for there to be more than 1 formation of them.


I just checked the Epic-UK tournament stats for this year and 2010:
Of the 15 Codex Marine lists that placed in the top 5,
100% took at least 1 Thunderhawk, and 73% took two
100% took at least 2 Warhounds, with one list taking three.
13% took more than a single Tactical formation

Nope - its that the primary ie best way to use the list should be air insertion but that it is usable in other ways just not as well.

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IMO this thread illustrates TC biggest issues - endless debates over the same things and constant tinkering with lists that work as development never reaches a conclusion and people behaving pathetically when they don't get their way.

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Considering last week EUK applied their own tinkerings to the Marine list, I don't really see a difference here, other than EUK being a group where only a select few get to participate in the decision making process; At the point we stand at right now, I think both EUK and FERC have actually made more changes to the Marine list than the current NetEA list has in it.

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Can we leave the Epic-UK discussion there and move on gents.

It seems that there is a pretty even split between people who want the entire marine list overhauled, and those that think, with a few minor points/stat tweaks, it is fine.

At this point all that is being done is opinions canvased and soundings taken. Once Dobbsy has decided that this process has run its course he will put out what he wants the community to test. At that point you either playtest or you don't.

EUk did some changes based on 2+ years of tournament play with the lists to boost the never used units and the newer lists. NetEA development was supposed to have come to a conclusion with the armybook with a yearly review, I would assume to address issues which arise, and development focusing on finishing variant lists. Not working for years to make the lists in the armybook and then immediately making major changes

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And also having certain members want to always add the latest GW super toy will certainly mean that lists are never finished.

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Seems sensible to me, though I'd encourage Dobbsy to listen to the voices of those actually likely to use the NetEA lists when considering what changes to make.


I'll happily test whatever list of changes Dobbsy settles on trying out.

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Which is why I laugh every time people in this and other threads go on about ground-pounder marine lists being as good or better than the standard marine list. Ah Ah Ah!

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E&C, since we're likely playing on Thursday, I will gladly let you use whatever variants you want in your Space Marine list for that game. Heck, it won't be more experimental than my knights anyway. So yeah, bring your LR fms at 300 pts and whatever else you think should be changed. Cheers

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Maybe the question is, how does one change the list so that top-tier tournament lists swap warhounds for tactical marines and predators, at least some of the time?

Make Tactical Marines & Predators cheaper (275pts already agreed for Tacticals, 275pts has been tried for Predators and they're still not worth it in comparison to Warhounds, so 250pts could be tried).

Make Warhound Titans more expensive (275pts already, perhaps move to 300pts) and apply a worse critical hit.

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