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Space Wolves 2.2

 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:45 pm 
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I wouldn't anticipate a major point shift for changes of the range discussed so far. I'd probably start testing without changing points.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:28 am 
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Ok I've taken a stab at the new rule. It's basically the commander rule re-written with the extra intermingled rule. Hopefully it meets with everyone's views/wishes from the above posts.... <fingers crossed>

Pack Mentality
SW Heroes can order up to three SW formations to follow them when they make an assault, as long as all the formations have at least one unit within 10cm of a unit from the Hero’s formation. Those other packs joining in must not have taken an action this turn, and must not be broken.

Make a single initiative roll for all formations, counting a single –1 modifier if any have blast markers. If the test is failed then the original formation receives a Blast marker and must take a hold action, but the other formations are unaffected (and may take an action later in the turn.

If the test is passed then all three formations may take an Engage action. Treat all the formations as if they were a single formation for all rules purposes for the duration of the assault. A 2D6 roll is used to resolve a combined assault. If the attackers lose then each formation is broken. If they win then each formation receives a number of Blast markers equal to the casualties it suffered in the combat.

In addition, when an enemy formation declares an assault on a SW formation the SW player may declare that any other SW formations within 10cm of the target formation are intermingled.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:47 am 
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Another option (not that I'm necessarily opposed to this) would be just the last half - that they can declare themselves intermingled.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:27 am 
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Dobbsy

The older test rule was for the Defender to use Commander as if he was an attacker with all the standard intermingling rules. I will post it up later tonight for you. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:42 am 
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I'd just go for the "declaring yourself intermingled" bit for now and see how that pans out.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:43 am 
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frogbear wrote:
Dobbsy

The older test rule was for the Defender to use Commander as if he was an attacker with all the standard intermingling rules. I will post it up later tonight for you. :)

I'll do it now.

This is from the Epic Armageddon Handbook, by Markconz.

Quote:
Some units and characters are noted as being commanders. Commanders can order up to three formations to follow them when they make an assault, as long as all the formations have at least one unit within 5cm of a unit from the commander’s formation.

Make a single initiative roll for all the formations, counting a -1 modifier if any have Blast Markers. If the test is failed then the commander’s formation receives a Blast marker and must take a hold action, but the other formations are unaffected (and may take an action later in the turn).

If the test is passed then all three formations may take an engage action. Treat the three formations as if they were a single formation for all rules purposes for the duration of the assault. A 2D6 roll is used to resolve a combined assault. If the attackers lose then each formation is broken. If they win then each formation receives a number of Blast markers equal to the casualties it suffered in the combat.

Finally, when defending against an assault, a Commander may declare friendly formations to be intermingled during the assault. The formations must be eligible to be intermingled as described in 1.12.10. Once declared intermingled, the commander’s formations follow all the rules exactly as if the enemy had declared them intermingled. Note that if either the enemy or the Commander declares intermingling, the formations are intermingled.


That last paragraph is the change in that version of the book, but was apparently not adopted in the 2008 changes. I never had a problem with it, power wise, and actually made Commanders look like a viable non-specific* choice, when compared to Chaplains and Librarians in the Marine list.

* If you go in with a specific plan, ie, 2-3 formations of Terminators, or Bike packs, Commanders can be good. As a "I want a character for an flexible role", the other options tend to do better.

Morgan Vening


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:05 am 
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That option looks so incredibly awesome. Simon want.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:30 am 
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OK so...

Pack Mentality
SW Heroes can order up to three SW formations to follow them when they make an assault, as long as all the formations have at least one unit within 10cm of a unit from the Hero’s formation. Those other packs joining in must not have taken an action this turn, and must not be broken.

Make a single initiative roll for all formations, counting a single –1 modifier if any have blast markers. If the test is failed then the original formation receives a Blast marker and must take a hold action, but the other formations are unaffected (and may take an action later in the turn.

If the test is passed then all three formations may take an Engage action. Treat all the formations as if they were a single formation for all rules purposes for the duration of the assault. A 2D6 roll is used to resolve a combined assault. If the attackers lose then each formation is broken. If they win then each formation receives a number of Blast markers equal to the casualties it suffered in the combat.

Finally, when defending against an assault, a SW Commander may declare friendly formations to be intermingled during the assault. The formations must be within 10cm to be intermingled. Once declared intermingled, the commander’s formations follow all the rules exactly as if the enemy had declared them intermingled. Note that if either the enemy or the Commander declares intermingling, the formations are intermingled.


Given the extended range for SW intermingled should the "enemy declaring intermingled" remain as the standard 5cm?


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:23 am 
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I think the 10cm on the defence should be 5cm

Commander on the defence is quite a powerful rule. No use making it more than what it was intended to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:19 am 
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I have been thinking about this and I would break it up as follows.

Have the start of the army list with any revalent rules. This would include:

SW 1.1 - Defensive Assault
When defending against an assault, a Space Wolf Commander may declare friendly formations to be intermingled during the assault. The formations must be eligible to be intermingled as described in 1.12.10. Once declared intermingled, the commander’s formations follow all the rules exactly as if the enemy had declared them intermingled. Note that if either the enemy or the Commander declares intermingling, the formations are intermingled.


SW 1.2 Expanded Command
A Character with this ability may extend their Command ability to 10cm when they order up to three formations to follow them when they make an assault.


Then have the Army Wide Special Rule:

Pack Mentality
All Space Wolf Characters have the Commander ability have the Defensive Assault and Expanded Command Abilities

==========================

What the above allows is for the individual rules to be used in other lists while still allowing the Space Wolves to retain Pack Mentality as a rule.

The Commander ability becomes useless unless you designate the rule as only for those with the Commander Ability - I would recommend this.

If you give it to all Characters however, then you have to rebalance your characters - Why take a Battle Leader over a Wolf Priest? This is not such a bad thing however - just re-jig the profile to make it a viable choice

By the way - Rune Priest Looks really good - maybe too good compared to the Battle Lord at least...

Hope all the above helps :)

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:41 am 
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I don't mind the idea of use across other lists I'm just not keen on breaking it into 3 rules in the list. For one, I have 2 rules already (not including ATSKNF and Transports rules). Secondly, any space I can gain will be preferrable, particularly for the Nemesis project.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:43 am 
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Hena wrote:
Why must you rewrite Commander special rule there? Couldn't you just say:

I figured it's an easier transition between the two rules and lets the SW rule add the old commander rule into the passage to further differentiate. Plus, it was only a rough starting version to get opinion. It is fairly clear in its intent, though.

On the question of defensive intermingling it's a pretty easy adjust it so it tells you that the "commander just has to be within 10cm and not the target" etc... Also it will make sure the SW rule is different again, thus differentiating even further.

ps - sorry for the excessive use of the word differentiate ;D :D


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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:18 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
I don't mind the idea of use across other lists I'm just not keen on breaking it into 3 rules in the list. For one, I have 2 rules already (not including ATSKNF and Transports rules). Secondly, any space I can gain will be preferrable, particularly for the Nemesis project.


Uhm. What are the other 2?

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 Post subject: Re: Space Wolves 2.2
PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:22 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
the "commander just has to be within 10cm and not the target" etc... Also it will make sure the SW rule is different again, thus differentiating even further.


As someone that has played with the rule that was placed forward and never accepted (for a reason no doubt), what you are suggesting is broken without a price rise. In fact, it is not something I would be interested in playing against.

If it is 10cm, it may as well be 30cm - hell, just allow the whole army to engage. It is pretty much the same thing.

You fail to realise just how effective it is against an opponent's carefully planned engage move.

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