So

As it stands the list compared to regular marines is
Significantly down powered with regards to losing Warhounds and Thunderbolts
Altered with the ravenwing bike formation - this is both a boost and a negative as the cheap formation goes to be replaced with something else that is more powerful at higher points with a synergy with terminators.
Altered with characters getting fearless instead of invulnerable save which I feel is about even, probably a slight boost.
Altered with the landspeeders having more firepower but balanced by increased cost, forced multi role capability and loss of some support ability.
Altered by the ability to get a Land Raider in a formation with a master in.
Altered in how it selects common support options linked to given a boost by being allowed to attach 2 hunters to a formation or say 1 predator and 1 hunter and so on.
Given a bit of old fluff back with unit compositions, names
Altered/up powered by special rule - Intractable
Altered with the ability to add terminators
Up powered with more powerful dreadnoughts
Up powered with more powerful tacticals

The above does lead to a different marine experience - not widely different but with enough changes that if played in a 'fluffy' fashion gives a satisfying (to me) game.

Of the above the biggest worry is the tacticals. They could stand to go 325 at least. Currently under likely usage (double to target, fire, engage next turn) they are better with at least twice the firepower. Unknown if a list taking advantage of several formations with a plasma pred, razorback and hunter attached (450 points minimum) would be too good. Will investigate and hopefully others will to! Also become better T-hawk loadout, perhaps with a plasma dred as could land and deliver 12 4+ shots for 550 points as a ground attack.

The last question is for the terminator upgrade - the CC2+/FF- option seems to be the best, but how much for it? 75 I think is too little so 85 or 100? A formation with a chaplain of 6 will do 5 1/6 MW and 4 1/3 normal hits compared to 3 1/3 MW and 2 2/3 normal for 400 point terminators - a more than 50% I beleive increase in hits. I think 85 points is the best solution instead of writing 100 for one or 175 for 2 as clearly the first terminator takes the chaplain which is a boost to that upgrade as well. 575 seems fair for a formation (of 4 basic terminators, 2 CC terminators upgrade and 1 chaplain upgrade) that is extremely powerful, tough and hard to break (and led by a fearless stand).

Is it possible for everyone on this thread to get 1-2 games in before the end of October which should be enough to settle things?

I will write it up neatly when i get home incidentally.

Oh and the attack bikes were they Heavy bolters or Multi meltas? I favour the latter to improve its FF/support ability which fits with supporting thedeathwing after they are summon it to deal with whatever.

So Deathwing = 4 generic Terminator units + optional Upgrade of 2 Assault Terminator units?

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4 Deathwing terminators , plus 2-4 of the following in any combination?

If you're doing CC termies (which I don't think is neccesary), use the same stats as the Imperial Fists.

Titanhammer is just the formation name, and in 40k they get some apocalypse benefits which have not been factored into the epic stats.

The stats we worked out are just for terminators with thunderhammers and stormshields. We don't need different stats for virtually identical units.

CC2+ (EA+1 MW) FF0, no guns, Invulnerable save.

I agree they could use the same stats.

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Zombo

Current thoughts were that they retain the CC3+ and that all attacks are considered MW - so each stand gets 2A MW CC3+ FF0. This was necessary to make them worth 350 points as the above stats did not give enough for the cost (purely due to the FF0 and no shooting)

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Oh, and before I am mis-quoted, here are the stats for the Titanhammer terminators currently as they exist:

Terminator (Titanhammer) - INF 15cm 4+ 3+ n/a Thunderhammer / Storm Shield (contact) (Assault Weapons), EA (+1), MW, Notes: Reinforced Armour, Teleport, Thick Rear Armour, Macro Weapon, Invulnerable Save

Note the MW under 'Notes'. As they do not have a FF value, it works to give all CC attacks MW.

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I disagree. Terminators are for one thing; teleporting into CC. They're better at that task, everything else is just backup.

TRC agrees with me I believe, he thinks the 2+CC version might even be worth MORE than normal terminators.

In this list in particular their weaknesses would be totally irrelevant, since they'd be mixed in a formation with terminators who do have a FF, so the formation as a whole would still have a decent FF.

If I had a choice between normal termies and termies with 2 MW attacks, I'd pick the CC ones every single time, even if they had no FF. They'd be ridiculously better.


As an aside, Titanhammer Terminator squads are allowed to take one heavy weapon each, so perhaps that might be a way to deal with them; a single assault cannon and FF5+.

This is where I disagree. The FF3+ is a guaranteed defence with normal terminators. Coming up against either a skimmer force, or a force that can assault you with a clipping assault is too risky to take FF0 terminators. They are no-where near worth the same points due to this and the CC2+ does not give you the required MW hits to tip the scales to make it a viable choice.

Even with the CC3+ and 2xMW hits, I am not confident that I would not take the standard terminators (purely due to defence) - to combat this, I have included a special rule to be able to pick which termies you can take after seeing the opponent's list (as they are the same point values).

In effect, all an opponent has to do it clip a FF0 formation to break it, then clip it again to wipe it out. That is ridiculous for 350 points going in blind to a battle.




Probably one for the IF thread, however I did see this; best to keep it as all or nothing IMO.

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I think that special rule is utterly, utterly broken.



They can teleport and have SR 5; if you let your opponent do this you deserve to lose.