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Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
Ginger
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:07 am 
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Umm Mosc,
To be fair to Soren, I don't think E&C or several of the other posters are actually tournament players either, and I would really hate this to get into a shouting match over who is the most appropriate judge.

And E&C,
I agree that there is more to E:A than the tournament setting, but I suspect that these other aspects rely heavily upon it in the form of unit costs and racial abilities - like this particular one.

Finally Soren,
Unfortunately I suspect that it may not be possible for any of those who feel it to be "Cheesy" to demonstrate it because of the complex interractions and assumptions involved. It is not enough to be able to demonstrate how three formations of Tacticals or Five of Scouts can kill things using drop pods. Additionally you have to show how the same formation(s) becomes 'invincible' when deployed with its full complement of ground transport, and in both cases, how this helps the army outperform other Marine armies.

At present, I believe many / most are opposed more on principle than anything else, preferring to avoid further rule 'exceptions' or fearing that other races may be able to abuse the principle more effectively than the Marines. I don't know how to pursuade them other than to suggest trying to abuse it as Soren suggests and that if necessary, we could limit this principle to the Marines only.




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Soren
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:44 am 
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So show me an example where the swap is a problem. I do not see the troubles you all crying about. ???

Just give me an example. Give me a list where this proposed abusal is more than just a formal rule interpretation. Show to me that this will make the army more unbeatable than any of the known cheesy marine lists. If you can do this, do whatever you want with the rule text. Until that I will not agree to any change of a single word in the original text. Wheter it feels cheesy or not, I don?t care. Feelings can be wrong, but proofs cannot.

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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:54 am 
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(Ginger @ Oct. 17 2007,14:48)
QUOTE
So it might be Ok If the Marine player specified that he did not have Rhinos, and then chose to deploy the formation via drop pods etc rather than garrison (or Thawk); but not Ok if he specified the formation had Rhinos, and then dropped them to garrison?

This is interesting. My personal view is that the player should select either Drop Pods or Rhinos. Either of these options can then be left behind and the troops placed in a garrison, or even on a Thunderhawk if one is available.

It is also the ability to swap Rhinos for drop pods during start-up that is such a problem because it allows the player to choose between survivability and a good initial offensive capacity??


That pretty much sums it up for me.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:00 am 
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This is interesting. My personal view is that the player should select either Drop Pods or Rhinos. Either of these options can then be left behind and the troops placed in a garrison, or even on a Thunderhawk if one is available.


My opinion is that it should say on the army list, something like:

- Tactical formation (With Drop Pods)
- Tactical formation (With Rhinos)
- Tactical formation (No transport)

The only formation that would have a choice when deployment time comes would be the 'no transport' formation, which could either garrrison, deploy normally, or ride a T-hawk. The other two formation types have already selected their deployment choice as a function of their transport choice.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:48 am 
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Just to be clear, im going to throw my hat into against, even though my original post wasnt the clearest...

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Mark_Logue
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:59 am 
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I'm with Mephiston here that marines should be allowed to declare they are using Rhinos or Drop Pods before each game.


I am going to have to wholeheartedly agree with this.  This sort of tactical flexibility is what marines really would have in the fluff and should have in the game.

I think the whole reason people may see it as cheating is just that both players believe the rules are different meaning both players will see it as the other person trying to get an advantage they shouldn't.  I think making it clear either way should solve that.

So many people say that marines is one of the weaker and harder to use lists so what would be the problem with giving them a slight edge with a little extra flexibility?  They still need to have purchased the space craft to get this extra flexibility.

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Mephiston
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:11 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 18 2007,10:00)
QUOTE
This is interesting. My personal view is that the player should select either Drop Pods or Rhinos. Either of these options can then be left behind and the troops placed in a garrison, or even on a Thunderhawk if one is available.


My opinion is that it should say on the army list, something like:

- Tactical formation (With Drop Pods)
- Tactical formation (With Rhinos)
- Tactical formation (No transport)

The only formation that would have a choice when deployment time comes would be the 'no transport' formation, which could either garrrison, deploy normally, or ride a T-hawk. The other two formation types have already selected their deployment choice as a function of their transport choice.

Ok, I don't agree with you but thats fine.

So applying your limitations shouldn't eldar have to pick what formations are using the webway? And to further complicate things should they specify which portal they are using if the army has multiples?

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Markconz
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:34 am 
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Oops was watching a vid and not paying attention...  sorry! :blush:

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:39 am 
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So applying your limitations shouldn't eldar have to pick what formations are using the webway? And to further complicate things should they specify which portal they are using if the army has multiples?


As I understand it, that's an entirely different topic.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:40 pm 
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Ok, before we get too far sidetracked on this related but interesting topic, to summarise the views about the principles on Marine transport:-

Option 1)
Marine formation transport must be specified at army selection time and everything must then be deployed as stated in the army list. Any alternative deployment optioins must be capable of taking the formation as specified on the army list.

Option 2
Marine formation transport must be specified at army selection time, but during start-up, formations may discard units to comply with alternative deployment requirements.

Option 3
Marine formation ground transport must be specified at army selection time, but during start-up
? ? ? ? ?- Formations may discard units to comply with alternative deployment requirements.
? ? ? ? ?- Infantry may be deployed by Drop Pod (up to the spacecraft capacity).

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Note, I am not bothering with the current wording at this point.

So, from the discussion so far, it seems that the majority of people favour either option #1 or #2, rejecting option #3 more on principle than anything else.
Has anyone else actually tried option #3 in the two months or so that this discussion has been running?

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:52 pm 
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Ginger, with the exception of the 'shouting match' paragraph your comments at the top of this page (pg6) are spot on.  The principle is what matters (to me anyway) and the possibility that this could be abused by other lists (slippery slope).

My intention wasn't to get into a shouting match with Soren.  He just made a whimsical (and incorrect) comment about how the majority of the people favored this swap and then managed to insult everyone who doesn't.   So leave it to me to fall prey to trolling comments like his and I rebutted.  Sorry, folks.  I'll keep it in check and leave my more personal comments for PMs.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:32 pm 
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No Problem Mosc, and thanks :)
While I accept the fear of the 'slippery slope' argument, I believe that in this case, it could be averted by specifying this is a Marine "characteristic, honed over the millenia of disciplined service to the emperor" - blah blah - (so discounting even Chaos derivatives etc)

However, a thought has just occurred to me regarding my option #1 above:- Do we feel that, by requiring the Marine player to specify when he is using Drop Pods, he is slightly disadvantaged as his opponent can then take steps to counter this in his deployment options?

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