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Vindicator
Nothing new 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
Upgrade FF by 1 to 3+ 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Change weapon to Thunderer Cannon and give +1 EA 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Something else, see below 52%  52%  [ 16 ]
Total votes : 31

Vindicator

 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:41 am 
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(Hena @ Apr. 19 2007,08:19)
QUOTE
Here's the stats then
Vindicator
Move/ Armour/ Close Combat/ Fire Fight
25cm/ 4+/ 6+/ 4+
Weapon/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Vindicators Demolisher/ 30cm/ AP3+ AT4+/ Ignore cover
              and  / (15cm)/ Small Arms/ Ignore Cover
Notes: Walker

I Like this stats really. Solves the problem with renaming, gives you a real chance to blast things out of cover and avoids the "creeping through several lists because Marines need a boost"problem.

But I would suppose to reduce the upgrade costs to 50 with this stats. It?s simply not worth 75pts.

my 0,002 cents

Soren

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 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:43 am 
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A better question might be is it a good boost to equal the pred? :) If they don't do it in 40k, so what? Clearly they lack our refined strategic minds.

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 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:56 am 
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Oh something I forgot:

I hate compation EA weapon stats with 40k but the demolisher shell is a clear point to do it:

To hit a AV14 vehicle the demolisher shell needs a 4+, compared to the battlecannon it has +2 strenght, which makes de vindi it a significant killer for high AV targets like monoliths or chaos tanks. If, and only IF we think about redoing the stats, I would like to avoid the macroweapon, we could stick it to: "AP3+/AT3+ ignore cover" to show the advantage over a battlecannon which gives you a AT4+ attack.

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 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:19 am 
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How about raising the weapon over on the sg forum, with the proviso it affects the vindicator, demolisher and baneblade.

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 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:50 pm 
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I like the new stats for 75pts.

In Codex Cityfight SiegeTanks as the Vindicator have Top Armour in the same rating as its Side Armour where other vehicles have Top Armour in the same rating as their Rear Armour.

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 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:52 pm 
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I'd rather see just a better FF (3+) than Ignore Cover, mostly so it doesn't raise any doubt about Demolisher cannons across the IG list(s).

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 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:24 pm 
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I know I'm going to sound like an oddball here, but I don't think you should do anything to the Vindicator.

Why?

Because it is already as good as a Predator.

There are two real problems with the Vindicator:

The Demolisher Cannon is a really good weapon, especially compared to the rather light armament of the Predators.  Really good to-hit numbers, roughly comparable range, and ignore cover.  If you are going to make the Vindicator comparable to the Predators you have to tone down either the weapon (a no-go considering interaction with the IG) or tone down the vehicle.  Well, guess what?  The vehicle got toned down.

Which leads to the second really big problem - the speed.  The speed of the Vindicator, slower than almost everything else in the Space Marine army, makes it really disliked.  In open field fights the speed is going to be a real problem.  Oh, wait a second, the Vindicator is not designed for open field fights, right?  It is designed for city fighting, where speed is not that big of a concern, just raw firepower and being able to kill things that are in cover.  Guess what kids?  The Vindicator is already optimised, with the Space Marine flair, for city fighting.

We don't need to change the stats of the Vindicator, we need to change our thinking on it.  It is not an open field fighting unit.  It is not a general purpose fighting unit.  (That's what the Predator is for doing.)  The Vindicator is a special purpose vehicle built for getting into cities and blasting infantry in buildings and vehicles that come around a corner.  Period.

If you don't think that the Space Marines use special purpose vehicles take a look at the Land Speeders.  They are the antithesis of the Vindicator.  High speed, skimmer, light armament.  Great for getting from point A to point B in a hurry and using speed to compensate for firepower as they exploit opportunities.  Land Speeders are the penultimate open field fight maneuver unit compared to the city fight attrition oriented Vindicator.

In all seriousness, the Vindicator is just fine the way it is.  Cost it to the same as the Predator and move on.

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 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:34 pm 
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An interesting point.
While i like all the changes from a fluff standpoint of view i used the Vindicator Detachmend only once  (without any changes) but to tremendous effect! They blasted the hell out of my opponents Siegemasters.

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 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:36 pm 
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I disagree. I think speed is a problem. Yes, the Vindicator is designed for urban warfare, but it's usually necessary to cross a significant portion of the table to get to the city.

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 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:40 pm 
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I was able to shoot the Siegmasters trenches on turn 2. In the same turn my combined assault hit the trenches where the Vindicators gave valuable support fire and thus routed the entire left flank of the Siegemasters.

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 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:25 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Apr. 19 2007,11:36)
QUOTE
I disagree. I think speed is a problem. Yes, the Vindicator is designed for urban warfare, but it's usually necessary to cross a significant portion of the table to get to the city.

So you triple speed move it from your starting position to where you think the enemy are going to hole-up.  Since you know the terrain before the game it shouldn't be too hard to figure out where optimal Vindicator start positions are.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for the Vindicator to be a speed 30cm vehicle.  But the Demolisher cannon is so good compared to an autocannon and 2x heavy bolters that I think it would require a point increase compared to the Predator to increase the speed.

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 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:44 pm 
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The thing I don't like about the Vindy being slower is that I would almost never take it as an upgrade with other vehicles. Speed really isn't too much of an issue with a Vindy detachment, but it would slow down an entire formation of mixed vehicles, all of which are a Rhino "conversion", if you know what I mean. Why is the Vindy the only vehicle based on a Rhino chassis that has a speed of 20 instead of 30? Is it because of the extra armor?

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 Post subject: Vindicator
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:52 pm 
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Armour is in WH40k the same as a Predator but it is the big Demolisher Cannon which decreases the speed.

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