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Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
Sytoru
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:31 pm 
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Okay, I've not been over to the SG forum yet to check the ins and outs of the discussion over this, but I'm assuming that it revolves around the wording contained in the Transport box out section 6.3.1 Now my understanding was that this was simply a special rule pulled out of the army list to make the army list clearer and avoid lots of repetition. It is something that should be read inline with the appropriate entries. I have two problems with this.

1) This is the army selection section (heh, try saying that after a few beers) of the rulebook so if you select the army before deployment begins well......

2) Since this is swapping around zero cost options (since the formation price already includes the cost of these transports) can I do the same thing with the composition of my Aspect Warrior Warhost?

  Anyway, off to visit SG, let's see if I can remember my password. :)

-S
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:48 pm 
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2) Since this is swapping around zero cost options (since the formation price already includes the cost of these transports) can I do the same thing with the composition of my Aspect Warrior Warhost?


It's pretty much the same argument really.

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Sytoru
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:12 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 17 2007,19:48)
QUOTE
2) Since this is swapping around zero cost options (since the formation price already includes the cost of these transports) can I do the same thing with the composition of my Aspect Warrior Warhost?


It's pretty much the same argument really.

*nods* That is the point though, one isn't much of an issue whilst the other could be a big problem in terms of tournament balance.

  Right, after reading the thread over on the SG forum it seems that it really does just boil down to when you are allowed to specify the composition of the transport option. I don't see any justification for allowing it with the way the rules are currently written and doing so opens doors that are best left closed.
  Would I be opposed to seeing this further tactical option being introduced as part of a review of the SM list? I don't think so. There is always room to justify things. So I'll now be sitting in the "not possible at this time with the current rules, but certainly something that could be introduced without much of a problem" camp. Unfortunately this camp is right next to the fence. :(

-S

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Ginger
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:56 pm 
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(Chroma @ Oct. 17 2007,18:11)
QUOTE

(Ginger @ Oct. 17 2007,18:00)
QUOTE
And you are not creating anything "new" here either - essentially you are discarding things that you have bought as part of the initial army selection.

I have only a mild problem with the "discarding" units issue, which is tangental to the Drop Pod/Rhino swap. (Marines are allowed to "discard" their Rhinos, but I'm not sure other armies can "leave behind" units.)

For example with the Marines: ?your opponent is taking model out before the game, would you be kosher with them placing their Tacticals out with their Rhinos, then noticing you have have a horde of Orks, putting the Rhinos back in their case, and putting down Drop Pods instead?

Which were purchased at initial army selection, Drop Pods or Rhinos? ?Is this some kind of "Schr?dinger's cat" issue? ?*laugh*

I like cats, having two small kittens myself. So I would definitely not want to put them through some sadistic experiment involving boxes and snakes - or any other 40K experience for that matter. Still that is a nice cat Charad.

When I did this in a tournament situation, (with the agreement of the umpire and the other 16 competitors I might add), we agreed that the transport options would be made after the opponent and army list was known, but before anything else happened - so there was no Quantum mechanics involved :) .

However, I see no reason why the decision could not be made earlier, after you know which race you are facing, but before seeing the list.



(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 17 2007,19:48)
QUOTE

(Sytoru @ Oct. 17 2007,19:31 )
QUOTE
2) Since this is swapping around zero cost options (since the formation price already includes the cost of these transports) can I do the same thing with the composition of my Aspect Warrior Warhost?


It's pretty much the same argument really.
Actually it is very different guys, because you are not changing the units you have bought, rather you are selecting which ones to deploy from those you have purchased in the army, and which to leave behind.

The equivalent practice using the Eldar might be to buy a formation of Aspects, pay for the Wave Serpent transport upgrade and also for a Vampire, and then choose to deploy in the Vampire leaving the wave serpents behind.

The obvious reason why Eldar (and other) players do not do this is because it is expensive - the equivalent of another formation. As I have tried to explain, although apparently cheaper for the Marines (and hence more feasible), they face other costs that are not perhaps so obvious.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:08 pm 
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Ginger/Biggles, you've done an excellent job describing your opinion, the situation, the intent, and the outcome.  The problem isn't in your explanation but in the perception of those who read it.  While you may think this is okay, others clearly do not.  

Am I correct in assuming you would have been happy to choose one or the other had the ref (or an opponent) demanded such?  If so, that is what we're facing here.  The rules as they are don't allow it, so what do we do going forward?  As much as you may dislike it, the majority of the people would love to see this fully clarified in an FAQ or in the updated army lists so that it never can happen again.

Don't get me wrong, it was a clever idea.  Akin to Kirk's Kobyashi Maru solution (which was to cheat - I mean change the conditions of the test). :)

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Mephiston
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:17 pm 
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I have to say my sole reason for even considering this for the marine review was to give something to Tacs and Devs so I may eventually see a marine list played were the Tacs and Devs actually outnumber the Terminators!

But the vote is heading in a conclusive manner so I'll keep on expecting the perpetual first company to take humanities war to universe  :p
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Sytoru
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:26 pm 
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(Ginger @ Oct. 17 2007,20:56)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 17 2007,19:48)
QUOTE

(Sytoru @ Oct. 17 2007,19:31 )
QUOTE
2) Since this is swapping around zero cost options (since the formation price already includes the cost of these transports) can I do the same thing with the composition of my Aspect Warrior Warhost?


It's pretty much the same argument really.
Actually it is very different guys, because you are not changing the units you have bought, rather you are selecting which ones to deploy from those you have purchased in the army, and which to leave behind.

The equivalent practice using the Eldar might be to buy a formation of Aspects, pay for the Wave Serpent transport upgrade and also for a Vampire, and then choose to deploy in the Vampire leaving the wave serpents behind.

The obvious reason why Eldar (and other) players do not do this is because it is expensive - the equivalent of another formation. As I have tried to explain, although apparently cheaper for the Marines (and hence more feasible), they face other costs that are not perhaps so obvious.

But you are changing the units that you have bought. You can have Rhinos for free or you can have Drop Pods for free (obviously the pods are no use if you haven't also purchased either a Cruiser or barge but they don't come as a part of either of those). You can't choose to have both in the formation when you select it. Saying otherwise opens up the door to the Aspect Warhost problem. All the Aspect Warhost entry says is that you get to pick 8 in any combination from the list.
  This isn't about deployment options it's about army selection.

  I'm also not totally convinced on the whole being able to choose to not bother fielding units before the first turn begins. But if you can then your proposition for the Eldar is the same as allowing SM formations to ditch their transports (be they Rhinos, Rasorbacks or Land Raiders) in favour of using a T'hawk. The point is that 6.3.1 is a special rule pertaining to list creation/selection. Once you are out of that section it is gone. It may not be worded with the utmost clarity but it is the simplest reading. What I stated before about "the harder you have to look to see it the less likely it is correct" is just another way of invoking Occams Razor.

  Again I go back to the fact that when you purchase a SM Tactical Formation (for example) with transports you pick which transport option you are going to use. Otherwise how is waiting until you know the list your opponent has selected from (their "race") to select either Drop Pods or Rhinos any different to waiting until you know the list your opponent has selected from to select your combination of Aspect Warriors? It is modifying your selection after the fact and goes against the point of blind selection that Tournaments generally operate around.
  I'm not opposed to the concept of it as a future modification but it is not something that has anything currently available to back it up without buggering up other things.

-S
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Sytoru
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:31 pm 
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(Mephiston @ Oct. 17 2007,21:17)
QUOTE
I have to say my sole reason for even considering this for the marine review was to give something to Tacs and Devs so I may eventually see a marine list played were the Tacs and Devs actually outnumber the Terminators!

But the vote is heading in a conclusive manner so I'll keep on expecting the perpetual first company to take humanities war to universe  :p

Don't let that vote sway you! I think most people have voted based on the current rules rather than as a "forever" choice. I know that I did. Would it be a good thing for the SM to have as a clearly defined option? I'm definitely leaning towards a "Yes" on that, but I can't read the current rules in such a way that this can be allowed without allowing other lists to be abused with this as precedent.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:38 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Oct. 17 2007,21:08)
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Am I correct in assuming you would have been happy to choose one or the other had the ref (or an opponent) demanded such?

Obviously I wanted to use the tactic (having specifically built the army with the flexibility in mind), but I was prepared to play without it and said so. We agreed to "suck it and see", and afterwards most / all of those who objected seem to have changed their minds including Braveheart, Mephiston and Tiny Tim.

Part of the reason for airing this was to remove the ambiguity in that section of the rules as part of the review. Obviously I would prefer the revised section to support my proposal, but I also see this as a way to balance the army list as a whole as well as giving the Marines a slight boost. Like Mephiston, I would really like to find ways to encourage different armies rather than the traditional "Warhound / Terminator" formations that are so prevalent, and to do so without necessarily changing points costs etc.

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jb1
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:50 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Oct. 17 2007,10:14)
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Soren, your comment is wrong. ?MOST of the people disagree. ?I just spent 20 minutes of my life that I will never get back writing down the name of every person that posted on this (not the number of times they posted). ?

Total for swap being allowed: 8
Total against swap being allowed: 17
One vote (jb1) I wasn't sure on since his posts seem to go both directions, but perhaps I didn't read them well enough.

I don't need a poll to tell me that the majority of people don't like this idea. ?And we're not talking about a bunch of Doug and Wendy Whiners either:

People Against the Swap:
Moscovian, Evil & Chaos, Alansa, Markconz, Sotec, Cybershadow, Charad, Lord Inquisitor, Vanvlak, Blarg D Impaler, Dwarf Supreme, m4jumbo, yogozuno, Dave, rpr, Chroma, Syrotu

This is a good cross section of people from the SG forum and Tactical Command that range from new posters to veterans - clearly not a bunch of cry babies. ?

FYI People For the Swap:
scarik, Dobbsy, Pixelgeek, Neal Hunt, Biggles, Mephiston, Tiny-Tim, Soren.

Even if the numbers were dead even though, there are enough people who are against it where any good gamer should shrug it off and say, "No big deal, I'll choose beforehand" and be done with it. ?No doubt the Marines need some help but not this way.

EDIT: Forgot you the first time posting this, Soren... Sorry!
EDIT AGAIN for posts that followed, adjusted Chroma's vote, subtracted the Ginger duplicate vote, and added Syrotu's vote.

I'm for "no swap".

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Soren
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:52 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Oct. 17 2007,16:14)
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Soren, your comment is wrong. ?MOST of the people disagree. ?I just spent 20 minutes of my life that I will never get back writing down the name of every person that posted on this (not the number of times they posted). ?

First of all, I have to clearly state, I neighter care about tournaments, nor tournament players. I extensively play Marines and my armies always include a major part of the force held flexible. I choose (for example) to garrison my Scouts or brin ?m by drop pods a few moments before setup and none of my opponents ever found that cheesy, nor I did. It?s the same thing an Eldar player chooses which of this formation gets through the gate or garrison (if he has the choice to select).

So if you really think you are right I?ll bring 10 ( maybe only 6 are interested at all :;): ) of my guys to the forum and say them to vote, just to prove you wrong. ????

I also do not see the cheesy way to heavily abuse the rule most of the guys here are afraid of, but maybe somebody could post a sample army list and the "heavy" advantages he gets from swapping rhinos to pods? ???? ?

And, sorry about your 20 minutes, but be sure you get the 20 minutes back when I am reading ridiculous new change proposals popping up every week in this forum ?:glare:

only my 0,002 cent

Soren




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Chroma
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:02 pm 
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(Sytoru @ Oct. 17 2007,21:26)
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? Again I go back to the fact that when you purchase a SM Tactical Formation (for example) with transports you pick which transport option you are going to use. Otherwise how is waiting until you know the list your opponent has selected from (their "race") to select either Drop Pods or Rhinos any different to waiting until you know the list your opponent has selected from to select your combination of Aspect Warriors? It is modifying your selection after the fact and goes against the point of blind selection that Tournaments generally operate around.

The difference is, with the Aspect Warrior Warhost, when you buy it, it says "pick eight from the following"... and says nothing about swapping.

For the Marines, you purchase "Six Tacticals plus transport"... that's what you'd be writing down on your "army sheet" or whatever, that's what the formation is listed as... it doesn't say "plus transport (choose now)" or anything.

The debate is, when does that "plus transport" resolve into "Rhinos" / "Drop Pods" / "None"?

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Ginger
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:04 pm 
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(Sytoru @ Oct. 17 2007,21:26)
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? I'm not opposed to the concept of it as a future modification but it is not something that has anything currently available to back it up without buggering up other things.

-S

I generally agree with your points here Sytoru. As written, IMO the rules are open to missinterpretation on this topic if loosely read, and I was endeavouring to add some clarity. However, as Mosc says, it seems that this is more a debate over whether the principle is a perfectly reasonable thing for players to do, or just downright unsportsmanlike and beardy :p

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:11 am 
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Soren, when you make one rude comment and I can chock it off as a low blood sugar time of the day (God knows I've had them).  But now you are just being ridiculous.  Please, by all means bring 10 people to vote this way if you've got 'em - it won't make a bit of difference.  There is still enough people who think it is cheesy.

The fact that you are bringing up the Eldar argument AGAIN tells me either you don't understand or you didn't care to read the preceeding posts.  Sadly I can't figure out a way to explain it better.  Even the proponents of the beardy swap maneuver (Neal Hunt namely) ruled that Drop Pods and Rhinos are a matter of army selection, NOT deployment.  If you can't agree with somebody that shares your own position then I can't help you.

Incidentally, if you don't care about tournament players or tournaments then why bother posting about this at all since this is a tournament topic?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:25 am 
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(Mephiston @ Oct. 17 2007,21:17)
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I have to say my sole reason for even considering this for the marine review was to give something to Tacs and Devs so I may eventually see a marine list played were the Tacs and Devs actually outnumber the Terminators!

This is a ruling that will only really affect tournaments, even if implemented it won't do anything to fix the balance of Marine armies outside of tournament situations.

And thus, the tournament-centric attitude to game design is not always the best attitude. :)

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