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Changing the core Marine list
The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:21 am 
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(Soren @ Apr. 25 2007,14:00)
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So what would a Thawk exactly get for this +25pts?

It would get cheaper assault marines to carry - and I do not think an extra 25 points would impact carrying terminators, tacticals plus dread or 2 formations of devestators (especially the devs) much if at all.

What is the problem on an eight strong marine armored detachment? They die like droves unter fire, cost an immense amount of points and cannot match any equal sized armored formation in game. (maybe orks, but the cost for them is nearly halved).


So leave it in as its a bad tactical choice? For 575 points its pricey - but all marine gear is. If you can manover away from heavy AT guns you should have a jolly old time.

Incidentally it is also too big to carry via Landing craft.

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Soren
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:34 am 
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1.) a ground pounder list is not necessarily inserted via landing craft. because ground pounders have other options (TH-transporter for example) dropping their formations away from hot landing zones. And we should leave the tactical choice to the players. If anybody wants to field it, why not?

2.) If we up the Thawk by 25 pts we have upped the Thawk-Termi combo for a full 50pts. I do not see any reason behind this. Termis got more expensive because of their ability to teleport, combined with high SR. If you pack them into a Thawk, you loose this advantage, but have to pay a higher prize for it? In my view upping the Thawk without a reasonable stats chance is a not an option, because it has an impact on all other ground attack forces also. Look at the list, nearly everything you use in an air drop list went more expensive ore loose the option to be dropped. I get the feeling we are over-tweaking it.




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:56 am 
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1 - I didn't think we were making a ground pounder list with the tweaks? And if we want to give the player flexibility why not the 'all the av's availible' flexibility option?

2 - Terminators are worth 350 when they teleport - the whole thunderhawk thing didn't I think come up to start with and certainly wasn't intentional.

I personally would welcome a cheaper Assault marine attack (525 instead of 550) against a more expensive terminator attack (575) - both after all are CC attacks and the terminies still do more damage and have a better secondary option of firing as part of a ground attack.

If they fall out of favour against assault marines doing what they are supposed to do - good.

The other thunderhawk options are still effective and the landing craft has a better chance at being balanced.

Overall the CC air assault gets cheaper and the FF/shooting air assault gets more expensive (and the scout drop pod attack becomes a thing of the past).

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Soren
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:13 am 
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The whole Thawk thing was hanged on the Assault detachment correction. I don?t see the thing behind that. I love to fill my Thawk with tacticals and a dreadnaught and I?m not willing to pay even one point more for this air assault without any good reason. This attack is neighter overpowered nor cheesy and half of the times it fails. I do not see the glue behind increasing the cost of the Thawk if we correct the costs for assaults. The argument "because the overall costs with assaults would stay the same" is not valid in my view, because the whole theme only looks at one part of the Thawk`s fields of application.

I would hate to see the deva, tactical or Termi-air assault punished, because of the lack of applications for the losy assaults.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:34 pm 
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I love to fill my Thawk with tacticals and a dreadnaught and I?m not willing to pay even one point more for this air assault without any good reason.


Under my proposal back on page 1, such a Thunderhawk would cost the same as it does now.


To reiterate:

- Thunderhawk goes up by 25 points.
- All marine infantry formations go down by 25 points.
- Any marine formation that wishes to drop pod must pay 25 points.


That would mean that your Tactical / Dreads thunderhawk would cost the same as it does right now.

But someone who wants to make a ground-pounder list would find he has 25 extra points to play with (Thus boosting ground-pounder marines moderately, whilst keeping air-assault marines practically identical to how they are now).

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:36 pm 
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I think E&C has a good point here :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:47 pm 
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(Hena @ Apr. 25 2007,15:43)
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I dont' think that the Devastator formations or Tacticals cost need to go anywhere. Both are fine as is (and I have fielded them in a tournament list).

Did your list have airdrop elements?

Did it win?

How would the final points cost have been adjusted by my proposal?

I'm very interested to see your list.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:25 pm 
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Hena: The final adjusted total of your armlist using my proposal is.... 2950 points.



Thunderhawk - 225
Devestators - 225
Devestators - 225
Thunderhawk - 225
Tactical - 275

Chaplain - 50
Land Speeders - 200
Land Speeders - 200
Librarian - 50
3x Razorbacks - 75
Hunter - 75
Supreme Commander - 100
Terminators - 325 (They're not teleporting so they don't pay the extra 25 points)
Whirlwind Detachment - 300
Warhound - 250
Thunderbolts - 150





Well, since you took a mostly airdrop list, but with some ground support, it makes sense you'd only get a minor discount.


But how about:

12x Devestators @ 225pts - 2700pts
12x Devestators @ 250pts - 3000pts

Now that's the absolute maximum points change you can get out of a Marine army (I wouldn't give Scouts the 25pts discount).

Is that (MAXIMUM) 300pts extra for a mud-marine list game-breaking, or game-fixing?

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:35 pm 
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In fact its 2975pts. You forgot to up the single Warhounds cost from 250 to 275 :)




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:37 pm 
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lol right.

So in any case, almost no change to an airdrop list (You get an extra Razorback or two!)

But the mud marines get an extra formation.

This I think, is a good thing.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:53 pm 
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And that would be a bad thing?

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