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Codex Marines: Warlord + Scouts list

 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines: Warlord + Scouts list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:11 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
LordotMilk wrote:
Dobbsy stated he wanted tournament wins from a list before anything would be considered an issue.

I believe you must be paraphrasing here because I don't recall using that sentence....

What exactly did I say?


Dobbsy wrote:
Further to the case, the oft-raised All Marine Scout or Land Speeder One Trick Pony Army that can theoretically sweep certain army lists aside has still yet to be seen across any table top to anyone's knowledge as it would be deemed easily defeated by several other army lists thus defeating the concept of the "take on all comers" list for tournament play.


Which I understood as: Let's see how it performs in a tournament (aka must perform well) before we consider a nerf.

For what it's worth, the above at least has the advantage of being a determined process that can be followed. And it is not completely unreasonable, as SM have been approved for such a long time, and nerfing scouts would affect many lists. Until that post, the problem was not even acknowledged at all as a potential issue, nor a process for review defined.

Now with regards to the statements you make with regards to scout armies, I must disagree that they are one-trick pony. An all air assault army is a one trick pony. A scout army can do anything any other army does, except better. So its more like a multi-trick war hydra. ;)

Secondly, I have stated many times that we play scout heavy lists here and that 1) they overperform, 2) they are not fluffy, and should be discouraged, preferably through a balance mechanism with the unit itself, over a change in the list structure. So, to my playgroup's knowledge, these lists are played on our tables with great success.

Thirdly, I would be interested in what lists can "easily" defeat a scout list. Remember the premise: 8 scout dets. , 2 captains: 1300 pts. All the rest is whatever you want, but you already have a monster fielded.

@Steve54: we have both been warned against arguing with each other. So lets just take for granted that we both consider each other completely wrong on everything and get on with our lives.

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines: Warlord + Scouts list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:33 pm 
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At the risk of sounding like a stuck record I would really like to see a battle report or two showing this list off. Any chance you could take notes at your next game. Sounds like one of your guys should be fielding scouts when you next get together?

Personally I have no interest in fielding a marine force and I'm attempting to playtest Tyranids anyway at the moment...


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines: Warlord + Scouts list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:37 pm 
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just for info, the batrep I did last week for the imperial fists took about 30 mins to write up, the photos were reasonably self explanatory, even though they were dark and shaky camera phone snaps.... no need to make actual notes during the game, and it probably only added ~5 mins if that to the game time, as many of the pics were taken while Steve was contemplating his next move

I don't think it's much of a hardship to write a game up overall and it would certainly go a long way towards backing up the claim that scouts are really overpowered when spammed.... :)

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines: Warlord + Scouts list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:59 pm 
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As I already have posted, I would gladly post a couple of battlereports if they had the slightest chance of convincing Dobbsy that Scouts are OP.

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines: Warlord + Scouts list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:00 pm 
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That's just obtuse...


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines: Warlord + Scouts list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:07 pm 
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regardless of whether Dobbsy agrees or not, I'd be very interested to read them, I pretty much read all batreps, whether I have a personal interest in the list or not, I like to think it helps me develop as a player and it's always good to see how others play (and win) :)

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines: Warlord + Scouts list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:42 pm 
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I'd like to see a battle report too. You know what, I'll try one myself tonight using tacticals as count as scouts. Eight units and two captains and fill it up to 3k. Draw out the opposing activations and then assault vital assets towards the end of the turn. Anything else?


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines: Warlord + Scouts list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:49 pm 
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LordotMilk wrote:
Well I would go with a base of 2 captains and 8 scout detachments, so as to get some mainstay to the army, activations and assault capability.

All the rest is optional. I made a post with a Warlord titan addition, another with 5 Land Speeder detachments + 2 Landing Crafts, above you can see a version with Stormravens.

One could try warhounds, terminators, anything to complement mass scouts well, aka AT/MW fire, beefy assault initiation, Blitz-grab troops.

Deployment will vary according to the opponent faced, but the idea is to play aggressively vs. defensive setups, and defensively vs more aggressive armies, as the Scout list can very much adapt to the opponent.

Aggressive play can be full garrison setup , then double + mass BM to break a couple formations, preparing for a couple massive T2 assaults with the captains. Activation advantage should be used for the setup and strategy advantage to gain initiative on t2, then cry havoc! More than half of your formations will be broken by the end of the turn, but the opponents main formations should be wiped, and even BTS taken. Then rally at end of turn 2 with the great SM initiative, and use activation advantage to get on top of objective controlling.

Defensive play would be focused on area denial through screening and overwatch troops, force the opponent into bad T2 assaults , counterattack, wipe out broken formations, and get the objective advantage on T3 due to superior SM resilience (ATSKNF, and 1 + init.)

Of course you have sufficient activations to actually use both strategies on different flanks, or some other combination. Scouts have all the best rules in the game (1+ init., 5 strategy, ATSKNF, good shooting attack, infantry for cover, greater than average stats, scout for screening and disruption, infiltrate for assaults, cheap upgradeable formations for activation count) for 30 pts. a piece, so you can basically do anything with them. A bit like better and cheaper tacticals. So their use is very adaptative.

Hope this helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines: Warlord + Scouts list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:53 pm 
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LordotMilk wrote:
As I already have posted, I would gladly post a couple of battlereports if they had the slightest chance of convincing Dobbsy that Scouts are OP.

Ridiculous, Dobbsy has done nothing to make you think that is the situation

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines: Warlord + Scouts list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:56 pm 
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Got it. They'll be going up against the finest tournament-worthy Steel Legion list I can muster.


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines: Warlord + Scouts list
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:25 pm 
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LordotMilk wrote:
Dobbsy wrote:
it would be deemed easily defeated by several other army lists thus defeating the concept of the "take on all comers" list for tournament play.


Which I understood as: Let's see how it performs in a tournament (aka must perform well) before we consider a nerf.

You're mis-reading him. Dobbsy is referring to playing a game using the tournament scenario where the opponent doesn't know what list or army he will be coming up against. No need to actually be at a tournament.

Go post battle report(s)! We would be interested to see how they go. It would help and provide constructive feedback.


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines: Warlord + Scouts list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:24 am 
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Quote:
As I already have posted, I would gladly post a couple of battlereports if they had the slightest chance of convincing Dobbsy that Scouts are OP.

Excellent! You have a slight chance of convincing me. Please post your reports. I think that's all anyone really needs from you to sort this out once andfor all. That or stop posting about the issue. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines: Warlord + Scouts list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:34 am 
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I just finished my battle which ended in an inconclusive draw. Report tomorrow, I'm off to sleep.


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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines: Warlord + Scouts list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:18 am 
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I'm very excited to hear about this!

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 Post subject: Re: Codex Marines: Warlord + Scouts list
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:51 pm 
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Alright fellows, here it is in all it's unedited glory. Scout Spam versus Steel Legion Tournament batrep.


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