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Predators

 Post subject: Re: Predators
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:19 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
The Destructors will die faster (No way to hide in cover from incoming shots), and break faster (Due to having only 4 units instead of 7).

I think this is not as much of a discrepancy as you imply. The Devs' transport are 5+ armor and the formation is vulnerable to both AP and AT. Devs will take more hits and save a lower percentage of the AT shots. Put some Fightabommas or a barrage on them and they look awfully similar in terms of durability. The Devs might survive in terms of keeping units on the board, but they don't retain much combat effectiveness.

It might just be my play style, but when it comes to guaranteed 30cm formation speed with the price of a little bit of fragility, I'll take the speed most of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Predators
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:25 pm 
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I do think it's worth testing as, amongst all the other reasons, it's probably the simplest solution that's been presented in this thread (And also the one with the most support amongst the commentators so far, for whatever that's worth).

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 Post subject: Re: Predators
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:33 pm 
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Quote:
Vindicator is the close range support tank for marines. Predator should be fire support tank. Frankly I wonder if one should just ignore 40k for a little and upgrade the Heavy Bolters to Twin (and possibly drop FF to 5+) ...


The problem is that close-range fire support (which the Destructor is) is basically FF.

Furthermore, I'm not sure I entirely agree. The Pred is the AT fire support tank. The Destructor is the AP fire support tank. The Vindicator is the assault support tank - it works closely with formations and is good at blasting people in cover. That gives it a role the Destructor lacks.

Quote:
Other problem is that the position of Pred Dest is very saturated in marine list. We have Land Speeder Tornado / Typhoon, Tacticals, Devastators and Assault Bikes all doing this fire support.


Yup. So? The Destructor's been around longer than Attack Bikes and both LS variants, IIRC. If anything should fill that role, it should be the Destructor.

Space Marines are a short range FF army. Having a variety of tools to do that is appropriate. The worst case scenario is that people will choose Destructors instead of one of those other options, which is fine by me - as long as they're all balanced, leaving it to individual choice and styles is fine.

Quote:
225 is not 250 ;).


True. But it works. :) And FF4+ Destructors are hardly overwhelmingly popular.

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 Post subject: Re: Predators
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:45 pm 
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From a fluff standpoint of fiew a Predator Formation shoul dbe either 3 or 6 vehicles and 1-3 as an Upgrade.

Imperial vehicle squadrons are always 3 vehicles. That is also true for Space Marines (see Predator Assassin Wh40k Apocalypse datasheet).

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 Post subject: Re: Predators
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:51 pm 
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Three's flimsy. Six's getting expensive. And there is the whole blister thing.

An upgrade to add two Predators might be an option, though. I'm sure Ginger's already mentioned it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Predators
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:54 pm 
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Yes three is flimsy. Especially without ATSKNF yet the Imperial Guard has three vehicle formations (Artillery Batteries and Flak Batteries) and they seem to work.

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 Post subject: Re: Predators
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:10 pm 
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Hena wrote:
Simulated Knave wrote:
Hena wrote:
Some points here. I don't intend to up the FF of Predator Destructor to 3+ as that would then automatically force Vindicator to have same change. Though perhaps FF3+ Vindicators could be 275 as Preds ...


OK. Please explain to me why this is so.

Because from where I'm sitting, the Predator Destructor has a completely different weapons fit to the Vindicator, and thus no change would be compelled.

The Vindicator remains with an Ignore Cover AP/AT weapon and Walker. That's not a particularly awesome niche, but it is one. Especially if the Predator is kept as a separate formation and the Vindicator remains as an upgrade.

Vindicator is the close range support tank for marines. Predator should be fire support tank.

Vindicator is the Siege tank that works in close coordination with other formations for Marines. It can hit AP, AT, and also do FF very nicely, it is an all-rounder.

Predator Destructor is a medium-range AP tank. Unlike the Vindicator it basically has no AT abilities worth talking about. Giving it a good FF does not conflict with the role of the Vindicator. It is an AP/FF tank, at least, it should be.

The vindicator will always have its cheaper price, AT gun, ability to be used as an Upgrade, ignores cover on its main gun, and Walker, to set it apart.



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Frankly I wonder if one should just ignore 40k for a little and upgrade the Heavy Bolters to Twin (and possibly drop FF to 5+) ...

Whilst that might make it useful, it would no longer be a Predator Destructor, it would be a Predator Hennor.

Quote:
Other problem is that the position of Pred Dest is very saturated in marine list. We have Land Speeder Tornado / Typhoon, Tacticals, Devastators and Assault Bikes all doing this fire support.

So?
That doesn't actually preclude you from making the Predator Destructor worth taking, it just shows you what a Pred. D has to measure up against.

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 Post subject: Re: Predators
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:12 am 
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BlackLegion wrote:
Yes three is flimsy. Especially without ATSKNF yet the Imperial Guard has three vehicle formations (Artillery Batteries and Flak Batteries) and they seem to work.


Hardly comparable though are they - unless your proposing giving Predators AA or indirect fire so they can hide behind (or in) cover on your baseline

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 Post subject: Re: Predators
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:26 am 
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If preds got aa everyone would take them :)


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 Post subject: Re: Predators
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:44 pm 
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Already suggested it in the form of including a Hunter for a total cost of ~275pts. :)

And before it is queried, this is a compromise to compensate for reducing the Preds to 225 (risks spamming) and 250 + upgrade (too expensive).


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 Post subject: Re: Predators
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:57 pm 
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I'm also in favour of a FF3+ Predator Destructor.
Will it be enought to make this tank less crappy ? mmm ...


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