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Land Raider Redeemer

 Post subject: Land Raider Redeemer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:32 pm 
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I'm against having the Multi-Melta on the Crusader too, for strange and unexplainable reasons.

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 Post subject: Land Raider Redeemer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:39 pm 
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Umm, its an upgrade that it can take? Do you wish to see the list of stuff in Epic that has optional upgrades from 40k? You can add it or not according to balance, that's the beauty of such upgrades.

Oh, heres one with it

Heres a Salamander


Still I'm unoriginal the idea for getting it in the first place was hearing all the 40k players plan to take it with one.

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 Post subject: Land Raider Redeemer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:46 pm 
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There's no point in taking a Multi-Melta on a LR Redeemer in 40k, as it's an infantry-killing tank... why would you want to dilute its purpose by adding an anti-tank gun?

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 Post subject: Land Raider Redeemer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:41 pm 
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I’m entirely aware it’s an upgrade for the Redeemer – or for any sort of Land Raider - that is sometimes taken. It’s not a standard part of the weapons fit though – and the epic weapons should reflect the standard iconic weapons (one of if there are a few) and not add extra weapons on at a whim. Nb. I have zero problem with the like of Leman Russ tanks having sponsons, because that is part of the iconic weapons fit for one, but that’s not the case here.


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 Post subject: Land Raider Redeemer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:42 pm 
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I would say that E&C's stats most accurately reflect the 40K rules. Whether these are the most appropriate are another matter, I certainly wouldn't take such a beast over a normal LR. If it were cheaper, sure.

As far as the multi-melta goes, we could be justified either with or without the multi-melta. For the "optional upgrade" camp, so are sponsons on Leman Russ, Demolishers and Predators. So sometimes optional weapons ARE standard. For the "it has a multi-melta" camp, it has always been an upgrade unlike the Crusader which traditionally has the Multi-melta. Bottom line - we can include it or not as best suits the Epic rules.

Now, that said, I will fight the inclusion of a multi-melta on any vehicle with a FF of anything other than 5+ - all multi-melta tanks have a FF of 5+ - otherwise you end up with the oddity of a multimelta FF attack that is better than the shooting attack.

It would be possible to do the same trick as the crusader, and give the Redeemer FF5+ and an extra ignore cover attack from the flame cannons and an extra 5+MW attack from the multi-melta.

So:

Land Raider Redeemer
Type Armoured Vehicle, Save 4+, Speed 25cm, CC5+ FF5+
Frag Launchers, Assault Weapons
Twin assault cannon, AT5+/AP5+
Twin flamestorm cannons, Range 15cm, Firepower 2xAP3+, Ignore Cover
AND Small Arms, Extra attack, Ignore Cover
Multi-melta, Range 15cm, Firepower MW5+
AND Small Arms, Extra attack, Macro Weapon
Notes: Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, Transport (1 Terminator or 2 other)

with

Land Raider Crusader
Type Armoured Vehicle, Save 4+, Speed 25cm, CC5+ FF5+
Frag Launchers Assault Weapons
Twin assault cannon, AT5+/AP5+
Hurricane Bolters, Small Arms, Extra attack
Multi-melta, Range 15cm, Firepower MW5+
AND Small Arms, Extra attack, Macro Weapon
Notes: Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, Transport (2 Terminator or 3 other)


This would (assuming the multi-melta version of the Crusader) mean the two tanks have roughly equal FF capability (slight advantage to the Redeemer), the Redeemer has superior shooting capability but worse transport. I would say these two would be equal in points should they both be options in the same list.

Now, both of these are probably (slightly) superior to the normal Land Raider. Removing the multi-melta from the redeemer and changing the FF to 3+ as with E&C's stats would certainly be worth less than the current LR.

Which raises the question: do all of the LR variants HAVE to be absolutely equal in "power" so they can all have the points value, or can they vary in power (and points) like Land Speeders? While it would certainly be "neater" to do the former, the latter may be more practical - it allows us to give the units the most appropriate stats and especially since they may have different power levels in the hands of different lists - my Grey Knights for example find the normal LR comparatively more useful vs the Crusader compared with other Space Marines.





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 Post subject: Land Raider Redeemer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:56 pm 
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Quote: (Lord Inquisitor @ 08 Jun. 2009, 20:42 )

Multi-melta, Range 15cm, Firepower MW5+
AND Small Arms, Extra attack, Macro Weapon

Can this *please* be changed to "Pintle Mounted Multi-Melta" that has a MW5+ attack and gives +1MWFF, instead of the 'base attacks are macro-weapon' thing?

There's nothing with the "base attacks are MW" that has extra attacks that *aren't* MW, so modifying the base attack with the MW ability just causes confusion: See Exarch on a Fire Dragon unit.

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 Post subject: Land Raider Redeemer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:04 pm 
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I agree that 'pintle mounted' would be the way to go if it was to have a Multi Melta.

I'm staunchly and resolutely against it having a Multi-Melta however.

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 Post subject: Land Raider Redeemer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:05 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 08 Jun. 2009, 15:56 )

Can this *please* be changed to "Pintle Mounted Multi-Melta" that has a MW5+ attack and gives +1MWFF, instead of the 'base attacks are macro-weapon' thing?

Isn't that what I wrote?


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 Post subject: Land Raider Redeemer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:07 pm 
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No, you wrote 'Multi Melta' which already has stats of course

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 Post subject: Land Raider Redeemer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:07 pm 
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Quote: (Lord Inquisitor @ 08 Jun. 2009, 21:05 )

Quote: (Chroma @ 08 Jun. 2009, 15:56 )

Can this *please* be changed to "Pintle Mounted Multi-Melta" that has a MW5+ attack and gives +1MWFF, instead of the 'base attacks are macro-weapon' thing?

Isn't that what I wrote?

You just wrote it as "Multi-melta", which is a weapon that already has its stats, and doesn't grant extra attacks.

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 Post subject: Land Raider Redeemer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:07 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 08 Jun. 2009, 21:07 )

No, you wrote 'Multi Melta' which already has stats of course

SIMUL-POST!!!   :agree:

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 Post subject: Land Raider Redeemer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:27 pm 
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They should be ideally as close to each other in value. I think the hardest for this is probably the crusader due to the change in transport capacity. As each list has different air options I don't think you will always get it to match as a result (the Thawk transporter is a variable here in a big way, the crusader seems the natural thing to transport with that and I'm surprised lists allow that variable as it sinks ground use of it by comparison)).

For the redeemer its a close in version of the land raider so should be compared to it like a vindicator to a predator (well, perhaps not but you get the idea). The Land Raider hull is very tough and unless you have a commensurate level of firepower you end up with an expensive hull without much else as an ablative shield for other vehicles. How cheap can a poorly armed redeemer be before its an automatic landing craft choice? Compared to how cheap does it have to be so razorbacks/pred/vindy upgrades don't look better to firepower starved marines on the ground.

The reason I'm so attracted to the 30cm gun is to allow it to be used in other lists that don't have the same air transport costs as Salamanders and remove that problem.

Something else to consider is the redeemer could conceivably be fielded as a formation of 4 as opposed to the crusader which will always be an upgrade, and how that alters things.

But otherwise I'm watching peoples crusader/redeemer ideas with some bafflement. The crusader is well on the way to being just a fancy heavy transport or a cheap way of mechanising terminators - instead of the premier marine assault tank/transport it was always billed as. In part it seems driven by the mech terminators/thawk transporter use. The Redeemer on the other hand is being made into a cheap land raider, again probably best on ground attacks or to fulfil unvocalised needs in various lists.

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 Post subject: Land Raider Redeemer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:39 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 08 Jun. 2009, 21:27 )

They should be ideally as close to each other in value.

1) Why do they have to be the same point value?  If one is better, it should be more expensive.

2) Why do they have to be the same point value in all Marine lists?  If a selection opens more options for a list it should have a different value than the same unit in a more restricted list.

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 Post subject: Land Raider Redeemer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:52 pm 
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ok that sounds like a good idea for the crusader Hena, i'll use those stats for the next BT list Update and testing, and see how we go

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