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NetEA Marine list planned changes

 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:08 pm 
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Oh epic has already gone in the net direction - as demonstrated in the tournament last weekend i.e. the rules posted on the SG site overriding the printed rules - living rulebook style

That's about as far as it goes however.

I predict the smaller epic tournament scenes will be the first to really go 'house' (with the French taking the lead along time ago) and the UK will be the last.

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 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:40 pm 
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We are going round in circles here, and at least partly because of misunderstandings of what I was trying to suggest, so with apologies for repetition and length, here is my view of where we are and what is needed.

Situation
It is clear that GW / JJ want to draw a line under Epic and move on. Equally, that there is a core of support which wants to play and develop the game. I think we all agree that the rules are essentially complete, so any development will be in the army lists.

JJ has expressed a clear (and IMO eminently sensible) suggestion that the army lists should represent the core stuff available to the principle races - but allows and even encourages the development of "fan lists" for particular factions, sub-classes or allies of the principle races.

Over time it has become apparent that there are a number of issues with the core army lists, but the champs decided to pile up the changes for a "one-time" fix because of JJ's views. The handbook was presented, JJ pronounced, and now we are trying to decide where to go.

The Future direction
Without trying to steal thunder (or second guess) the Net ERC, we need a means to process, authorise and publish the army lists etc.

I believe that Net EA is the way forward, given the lack of support from SG / GW, and the evident desire to draw a line under Epic. So the Net ERC has been formed to bring the global community together, support the development process and to authorise appropriate changes. I sincerely hope that Markonz's excellent handbook, which has been an excellent catalyst for change, will continue to be used to communicate all Net EA approved changes.

However, large numbers of people do not visit the boards and rely solely upon the resources in the SG site. If we can, it is my firm belief that we must continue to post the results there. Together with its long-term stability, this is one of the main reasons that the UK tournament group continue to rely upon those resources

Today, these two strands of thought are not incompatible if we are able to get JJ (or someone else) to post our changes on the SG boards. We have managed to get the vast majority of rule changes through JJ, and, provided they are vital to the balance of core army lists, I see no reason why JJ should refuse to publish suggested changes to the army lists as part of the "final revision", which I think will include updating the online rule book - so that will indeed supercede the original printed version. (In saying this I am both mindfull of the various statements above and have also been communicating with JJ).

If JJ does publish some or all of the proposed changes, then we have the ?official? rule-book and army lists on the SG site for general use, and the ?NetEA approved changes? in the ?Handbook? which may contain further developments due to be published. We also have a complete end-to-end process for developing ideas through to their publication at minimal cost to GW, which IMHO is the best of both worlds. Of course if JJ declines to publish the vast majority of the changes, then we will have to look for another way to do this, and the 'Handbook' is an excellent starting point.

Right now to test this approach, we need to present our ?Army list changes? to JJ in such a way as to make it as easy as possible for him to review and understand the ideas being presented. IMHO we must make a clear distinction between "Core" and "Cosmetic" changes and we must make them clear and concise; hence the suggestion of prioritising the lists, and doing every thing we can to make the review process easy.

I still firmly believe this method is the best way to provide a single set of rules and lists for use by all, together with the means for going our separate way as and when necessary (which may indeed be sooner rather than later)

Phew - have I missed anything?





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 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:53 pm 
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Ginger:

Do you believe JJ is open to publish fixes for the currently published races?

If not, do you believe the tournament scene can be persuaded to adopt Net EA instead of GW EA, if the people here can produce it?

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 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:24 pm 
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And how about the NetERC compiles a document with the "corrected" final army lists (which will probably take months) and just asks Andy to load it up in the vault? With explanations and notes that this is not official material, but fan made.

I am sure most people would use it then. Or at least it would be much easier to talk other people into using those lists. This way we do not bother JJ (who will NOT waste any more time into Epic in the near future, despite some peoples wishful thinking) but all the people not involved here still have a chance to download the rules.

And where ever you play anybody you can just say "We will use the Fan-Revised Army Lists Compilation [or what name ever] from the vault, that okay with you?".

Of course Andy still needs to agree to upload something like that.






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 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:34 pm 
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Given that we present changes that are clearly seen as vital to the core lists, and do so ASAP, we may be able to pursuade him to accept some of them. He is clearly opposed to continual "fiddling", and to "factions" etc. However, it is also clear that there are still some fundemental flaws with the lists, and it is those that we should try to address IMO.

If JJ refuses to publish them, then I think the Net EA community needs to create it's own "official" version of the rules / army lists to fix the issues. I would hope that the tournament organisers and community would then be in a position to use that version. However, Matt is the chap to ask on that point.

Note, this could indeed be the 'Handbook', providing it (or a version) is locked to keep it static, because we need to ensure consistency over relatively long periods of time (1-2 years minimum).

And as Warphead suggests, it may be possible that Andy H can do as suggested. Either way, we get Net EA authorised stuff into the SG boards for general use. :blues:





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 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:46 pm 
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(Ginger @ Apr. 08 2008,16:34)
QUOTE
If JJ refuses to publish them, then I think the Net EA community needs to create it's own "official" version of the rules / army lists to fix the issues. I would hope that the tournament organisers and community would then be in a position to use that version. However, Matt is the chap to ask on that point.

And, I think that this is the key point here. I agree with Ginger up to a point. The issue as I see it is that SG simply wont want to continue to update files in the Vault. My guess is that JJ simply sees the game as 'finalised' with no need for changes.

I dont hold much hope of getting any updates to the official SG site in the near future. However, I am hopeful of getting tournament organisers on board with changes. If there are clear issues to be discussed, and SG wont, then our change docs should be approved and agreed by the 'tournament community'.

My long term goal is to produce a set of tournament documents. For example, these would be Alpha (minimal changes to core rules and core, official forces), beta (more comprehensive core rules changes, changes to core force lists and perhaps one or two of the more developed unofficial lists) and Delta (full core rules changes, full notes for all reasonable official and unofficial lists). This would mean that tournament organisers could grade their tournament as Alpha, Beta or Delta, and everyone one know in advance what lists and rules changes were applicable to the event. Obviously, this does entail working with the organisers as closely as possible.

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 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:52 pm 
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Ginger: Sounds hopeful

And I think everyone would agree with Jervis that they don't want continual fiddling - i.e. constantly change rules. Rather, occasional updates every 2 - or more years or so. As ?Jervis proposed when he introduced his Living Rulebook idea.





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 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:51 pm 
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@CyberShadow: I completely disagree! What the community needs is a clear consensus of what is THE ruleset and armylist set to use. Nobody wants to have three different rulesets!

I don't give a fuss about what those rules/lists are called, NetEA or whatever, but they should be finalized and no longer subject to change (at least for a few years). I even agree with a "minimal changes" solution as proposed in this thread.

We (most German players at www.epic-battles.de ) were really grateful for Marconz' great job with the rulebook and thought the constant changes were over. But it now starts all over again.

JJ's finalized ruleset is really okay. It is (more or less) what we played anyway, even on all German tournaments I took part or organized. No further changes needed here.
But the army lists need a lot of fixes. That needs to be done, compiled into a pdf and made available. I would prefer something like Markonz' rulebook to have everything in one place.

And then lock it up! Collect feedback and suggestions, test and finalize armylists not incorporated in the rulebook yet and update the thing not before 2010.

I know that the people I play would welcome something like that for sure.






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 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:52 pm 
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Warphead,

While I totally agree with you that we need a single "official" set that is locked up, I think CS is suggesting that there would be one or more versions in different stages of development / approval as the cycle continues.

I am essentially proposing exactly the same thing as both you and CS. The only difference being that the first set to be "locked up" is the 'minimalist' version on the SG boards (if we can put it together through JJ etc). Meanwhile, list development continues for a year or so through the Handbook to the point where the Net ERC deems it appropriate to "lock up" a new version and so we go through the cycle again.

Does that make better sense??

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 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:42 pm 
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Sorry, I was not clear. My suggestion was solely for tournament play, while the situation exists where we have rules and lists which are still under consideration/debate. I certainly dont want to move to three sets of rules either!  :)  It would just allow tournament organisers to select their type of tournament, and players to know exactly what the situation was.

Ginger is correct, in that these 'tournament packs' would evolve as rules became more settled they would move to the more stable documents. This way, a tournament organiser could stay conservative and just run an alpha tournament, knowing that therules document was well established, had player support and everyone had access to the same set of guidelines and rules.

I dont think that it will be as difficult to get tournament organisers on side. All that needs to happen is that we prove that the suggestions that we make are necessaril and lead to a more balanced game. In this situation, if SG wont move forwards, I cant imagine tournament organisers not using rules alterations which have been approved by the community.

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 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:06 am 
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I second Warpheads posting.
Please leave the rules alone. Speaking only for me i see the rules as finished now.
But some of the armylists surely need some tweaking.

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 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:41 am 
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(Warphead @ Apr. 08 2008,16:51)
QUOTE
We (most German players at www.epic-battles.de ) were really grateful for Marconz' great job with the rulebook and thought the constant changes were over. But it now starts all over again.

JJ's finalized ruleset is really okay. It is (more or less) what we played anyway, even on all German tournaments I took part or organized. No further changes needed here.
But the army lists need a lot of fixes. That needs to be done, compiled into a pdf and made available. I would prefer something like Markonz' rulebook to have everything in one place.

And then lock it up! Collect feedback and suggestions, test and finalize armylists not incorporated in the rulebook yet and update the thing not before 2010.

I know that the people I play would welcome something like that for sure.

Cheers for the kind words. I've now given the master copy of the EA Handbook to the NetERC and I hope they will do just what you say. However, I imagine that development will take some time. Like you say the core rules are fine  with Jervis's amendments (and everyone is agreed on that  including the NetERC), but yes the army lists could use some attention.

Until the NetERC comes up with a new Handbook version my own group will continue to use the 2008 EA Handbook. It's got everything in one convenient document, locked down rather than changing all the time,  and everyone is on the same page when we use it.

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 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:20 am 
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Hena:

I actually agree with Matt and (other organisers) on their stance on offical GW rules. This is why, like Ginger, I'd like to see GW fix the big problems in their product.

If that doesn't happen then I hope the tourny organisers will abandon GW Epic A and adopt 'Net EpicA'.
At which time I'll start to badger Matt.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I think we all agree core rules are fine and need not change. army lists need some tweaks. Especially the Space Marines. Hence this discussion in this thread I guess.

Despite the flaws with the list Space Marines ?are still the most popular army and without an official AMTL army they are also the flagship army for epic as they are in 40k

While they are not "broken", i.e. they remain fairly competative, huge numbers of SM unit types are rarely deemed worth taking. (indeed, one might not bother to purchase models for such unnatractive units - though I don't suppose GW care about that any more.)

The problem is much worse with SM than with any other race. To my mind for example, the fact that no one wants to take Land Raiders is a problem more serious than some of problems fixed in the core rules!

This is not good and must be fixed before lockdown. In my opinion , Games Workshop's Epic Armageddon cannot be deemed satisfactorily complete until this is done.

Fortunately, we agree on most of the changes - I think.
Most of these changes can be implemented within the restrictions set out by Jervis.

I think it can be done officialy and the game will be much better for it.





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 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:12 pm 
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(Markconz @ Apr. 09 2008,04:41)
QUOTE
Like you say the core rules are fine ?with Jervis's amendments (and everyone is agreed on that ?including the NetERC), but yes the army lists could use some attention.

Until the NetERC comes up with a new Handbook version my own group will continue to use the 2008 EA Handbook. It's got everything in one convenient document, locked down rather than changing all the time, ?and everyone is on the same page when we use it.
Markonz / CS

Have we changed the Handbook to contain only those rule changes approved by Jervis (so reversing out changes that were rejected)? If not, could this be done ASAP?

Regarding the army lists, if we make the font of all "accepted" changes black, we can leave any potential revisions as a different colour/type face to highlight the potential changes remaining

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