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Dreadnoughts
1. No. 45%  45%  [ 13 ]
2. Yes. 41%  41%  [ 12 ]
3. Yes, but make it a 0-1 formation (1 formation only allowed). 14%  14%  [ 4 ]
4. Any of these options, I don't have an opinion. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 29

Dreadnoughts

 Post subject: Dreadnoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 5:17 pm 
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I think that a formation should be allowed as an upgrade option to the food infantry units too.

they must be droppable and can be loaded by the t-hawk.

The movility is one of the Marine's best friend.
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 Post subject: Dreadnoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:41 pm 
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(bans @ Jul. 30 2007,09:17)
QUOTE
I think that a formation should be allowed as an upgrade option to the food infantry units too.

You've been playing Tyranids too much  :D

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 Post subject: Dreadnoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:13 pm 
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Let's get down to the real core of the problem: the dreadnoughts don't work well as the army list is currently structured.  For an offensive and manuever oriented force like the Space Marines the dreadnoughts are more of a hindrance than a help.

Operational Speed - They are effectively the slowest unit in the Space Marine force at 15cm movement.  Yes, all of the non-Assault infantry have a 15cm movement also, but they also have transports that increase their speed up to 25-30cm.  Dreadnoughts do not have that ability, so they are stuck at 15cm speed.  What is worse is that the units that they can be assigned to are effectively slowed down to 15cm speed also due to the unit coherency rules.

Dreadnoughts do have the bility to be transported in Thunderhawk Gunships, Thunderhawk Transports, Landing Craft, and Drop Pods.  This is great, and I have no problems with this, but if we as a group want to move the Space Marines towards being more viable as a ground combat force then we need to get the dreadnoughts more ground based operational mobility.

One method of giving the dreadnoughts more ground, non-air assault, operational mobility is to give them transport options.  In the past editions of WH40K and Epic allowed players to load individual dreadnoughts into Rhinos so that they could be moved about quicker and easier.  I don't know why GW has gotten away from this idea; either they have forgotten it, discarded it out of a WH40K oriented myopia, or think that with the new model (from the old "peanut shaped" to the boxy shape) it would be impossible to transport.  I've advocated giving the Land Raider the ability to transport dreadnoughts for a couple of different reasons:

Dreadnoughts need to be transported, not only on the battlefield but from battle to battle.

Land Raiders have been somewhat declared to be able to carry "the bigger units" by being able to transport Terminators.

Land Raiders have been declared to be too expensive and there has been a general consensus to lower their points.  But many had reservations that the point drop was insufficient.  I agree, but I am loathe to lower their costs any further.  I feel that instead of lowering their cost we should increase the Land Raider's worth by increasing their desireability and capabilities by making them more usuable.  I think that aside from making them available to Tacticals we should also allow them to carry Dreadnoughts.

Another way to increase the Operational Mobility of the dreadnought is to allow it to operate by itself.  As much as the dreadnought is an anchor around the neck of the formation it is assigned to that formation can also hinder the dreadnought.  The Dreadnought is the only Codex Space Marine unit that has the Walker special ability, allowing it to more easily negotiate dangerous terrain.  If allowed to operate independently players will be more willing to utilise this ability and have dreadnoughts negotiate dangerous terrain without fear of having some other units fail.  While allowing dreadnoughts to operate in their own formation is not nearly as critical as allowing them transportation I think these formations will offer a new method for Space Marines to carry out their assaults.

Dreadnoughts are, in my opinion, poorly utilised as defensive units.  One of the obvious uses of dreadnoughts is to negate their slow speed and use them as garrison formations, objective defenders, and artillery park guards.  Someone suggested allowing Dreadnoughts to be added to Whirlwind formations, which I think is a fantastic idea.

<<< --- >>>

While I agree that the Epic army lists should try to follow precedence shown in previous editions of Epic and WH40K, we should not be slaves to it.  An overly strict interpretation of what follows the background and what does not should not be an obstacle for making needed changes to army lists.  Dreadnoughts piloting Land Speeders?  Yes, that should not be allowed, and no sane person is going to argue in favor of them.  Not allowing dreadnought formations because it doesn't follow background?  Now you are disagreeing just to disagree.  If there was actual mention that dreadnoughts were not allowed to operate en masse for some reason (like Warhound titans are not allowed to operate in large groups after a defection to Chaos) then I would say there is a valid reason to not allow them.

My suggestions still stand:

1) Allow dreadnought formations
2) Allow Land Raiders to carry dreadnoughts
3) Allow Land Raider upgrades to dreadnoughts

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 Post subject: Dreadnoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:31 pm 
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No no!! I only  kick the bugs!!  :D  :D

Really if the drad is a support unit / assault unit why they cannot be an upgrade for the "food" infantry ( I mean foot infantry  :D  :D  )

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 Post subject: Dreadnoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:37 pm 
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Every SpaceMarine unit can be fileded in a formation consisting of only this unit (apart from  Rhinos and Razorbacks as this are only transport vehicles).
So i see no problem in having Dreadnought Detachments.

But no way i see a Dreadnought transportable via LandRaider.
From battle to battle they are transported via Thunderhawk or DropPod.

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 Post subject: Dreadnoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:48 pm 
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The only case I use them are two CC Dreadnoughts for an extended Devastator detachment transported by a Thawk. Pretty fragile (they die first) but the MW CC attacks give the formation a real punch, at least for the one assault. This is the case I see them excel. No problem if this stays the only case. :)

I see also no chance to transport them exept by Thawk or Barge. Putting them into Raiders or Rhinos is ridiculous. Maybe they could get a little cheaper? Not a "has to" imho.





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 Post subject: Dreadnoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:18 pm 
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Yep. Dreadnoughts atre only useful in assaults. And there they are good. Ok perhabs CC3+ would be better than 4+ In WH40k if a Dreadnought manages to initiate CC it usually smashes its opponents to mush, because few units have weapons which can hurt it in CC.

In Epic CC-Dreadnoughts are good to assault FF-specialists, Multi-melta Dreadnoughts would be good against CC-specilists.

But the ranged Dreadnought is really weak. It is only good for garrison duties where it will get shot to pieces very quickly. If it would have FF3+ i would consider using it for assault purposes.

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 Post subject: Dreadnoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:28 pm 
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Hmmm stat changes eh?

- CC Dread
    No Change.

- Las/Missile Dread
    FF3+

- Multimelta Dread
    Include it!

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 Post subject: Dreadnoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:35 pm 
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MM Dreadnought will make the CC Dreadnought useless. You Take the CC one to get the MW ability. If I can get one with can shoot AND MW-FF I will take this one and forget all others.

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 Post subject: Dreadnoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:40 pm 
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EDIT: Ok....just remembered, that the MM-Dread still has its MW-CC attack...
So FF4+ should be a no go. FF5+ should even it out.
After the assault the AssaultCannon is more useful than the Multi-melta because of its range.





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 Post subject: Dreadnoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:40 pm 
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MM Dreadnought will make the CC Dreadnought useless. You Take the CC one to get the MW ability. If I can get one with can shoot AND MW-FF I will take this one and forget all others.


What's wrong with paying 10 points to upgrade to a MM dread?

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 Post subject: Dreadnoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:44 pm 
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I strongly dislike 10 pts upgrades in a list which hosts mostly 25pts upgrades. beside this it renders one of the existing choices useless, at least my opinion.




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 Post subject: Dreadnoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:46 pm 
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*shrug*

I'm a strong proponent for -10pts for attack bikes. :)

beside this it renders one of the existing choices useless, at least my opinion


It doesn't if you cost it properly.





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 Post subject: Dreadnoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:22 pm 
So would the dreadnought ride in a modified land raider, or get towed along wearing something like roller skates?

After all, if a big dumb artillery piece can be towed by a truck, a dreadnought should be towable if he has a platform to stand on.


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 Post subject: Dreadnoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:17 pm 
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So would the dreadnought ride in a modified land raider, or get towed along wearing something like roller skates?


Yes, or we could give the Dreadnought a set of skis when they fight in snowy battlefields and they could do aerial "tricks" off battlefield obstacles and moguls.... :laugh:

Ok, sorry Markconz. Back to the serious discussion






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