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Changing the core Marine list
Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:07 pm 
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(Hena @ Apr. 24 2007,13:02)
QUOTE
For Blarg, I don't like the Idea of veteran this and that, they can be represented with Tactical formation just fine.

Land Raiders carrying Dreads is also questionable as that hasn't existed after RT (same as Rhino carrying it). Scouts removed pods, sure that I could agree.

The reason for the "veteran this and that" is that there is precedence for them in WH40K.  Granted, that was WH40K 2nd ed. but I stopped when 3rd. came out.

I doubt that there would be much argument about veteran tacticals.  They have been mentioned for the Ultramarines and special figures were made for the Dark Angels (marines with robes) and the Ultramarines (Tyranid Hunters?).

The Space Wolves have (had?) a system where newer marines, post-scout training, would be put into the Blood Claws (their assaults).  As they got more experienced they would be moved into the tacticals, and once they reached what others would call veteran status they were put into the Long Fangs, their Devastators.  Aside from the typical stat increase the Long Fangs had a couple of minor special abilities.  While Veteran Devastators have not been mentioned specifically for other chapters (to my limited knowledge) I'd think that it would be logical to assume that with hundreds of years of combat you might get 20 Devastators who the commanders would form into a veteran cadre.  The Space Wolves formed Veteran Devastators as a by-product of their advancement system.

In WH40K 2nd ed. the Blood Angels (in "Angels of Death") could take veteran marines, but they would be outfitted and operate as Veteran Assaults.  Given the Blood Angel predeliction for close combat it would be logical to assume that with hundreds of years of combat you might get 20-60 Assaults who the commanders would form into a veteran cadre.  Why wouldn't the Ultramarines?  And before anyone says:  :O "Because the Codex says so," :O  you had better have a copy of that book and a page number I can reference. :angry:

<<< --- >>>

Yeah, the idea of dreadnoughts being transported has not been talked about for several editions of many games.  But, you have to ask yourself a couple of fundamental questions:

1) If dreadnoughts can't be transported, how do they get from battle to battle?  Do they walk everywhere?  ???

2) If one of the big problems with dreadnoughts is that they are too slow, and you don't dare increase their speed for fear of Bjorn the Fell-Handed doing Nike commercials, then how do you take care of the problem?

3) If Land Raiders are too good to drop their points from 100 to 75 points each, yet not good enough to be 100 points each, what are you going to do?  Do you downgrade their abilities until they are worth 75 points each, or do you upgrade them to be worth 100 points each?

4) If the Space Marines are so awful as a ground attack force (they're not, but I'm going to pander to your fears anyway) then shouldn't we do something besides just pumping stats to make them a better in land assaults?

I'd lay it all out for you guys, but I think we are all smart enough to do that "two birds with one stone" leap of logic and see why it's a good idea to allow Land Raiders to carry Dreadnoughts.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:17 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Apr. 24 2007,12:09)
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I like it too. But i wouldn't allow LandRaiders to transport Dreadnoughts.

Apothecary would do nothing as the InvulnerableSave of the Character IS ?the Apothecary.

Techmarine is another matter. I represent him with the rules vor a Librarian addet to an Devastator unit.

Point #1 regarding transporting Dreadnoughts - Refer to my discussion above.

Point #2 regarding Apothecaries - Not only would the Apothecary get an Invulnerable save, but all of the other INF and LV in the formation would get the 6+ Invulnerable Save to represent the healing powers of the Apothecary.

Point #3 regarding a Techmarine - I'd make him give an Invulnerable Save to himself and to all LV and AV in the formation to represent him and his Servitors turning wrenches.  (As a side note, you could use this rule to represent Eldar Bonesingers in Epic.  While the Eldar would not have an Apothecary equivelent the Bonesinger could also cover Wraithguard and Phantom titans.)

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:50 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Apr. 24 2007,20:07)
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(BlackLegion @ Apr. 24 2007,13:33)
QUOTE
Damn your're right. No Vindicator in 40k before 3rd Edition :(

People forget how many 40K vehicles actually started with AT/SM 1.

I know. The Leman Russ, Basilisk, Hellhound, Griffon, Razorback and AttackBike all where introduced via WD to Wh40k 2nd Edition.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:01 pm 
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Re LandRaider: I think the LandRaider is formidable as it is but needs a FF of 4+.
Allowing LandRaiders for Assault, Tactical and Devastator Detachment to show their veterancy is a good method i suppose :)

#1 Dreadnought move via Thunderhawk, LandingCraft, Droppod and yes they walk.
They are inthe first line of an assault /transport aircraft, droppod)or in the last one (garrison). Not between. It fits just fine to me.

#2 and #3 InvulnerableSave to the whole formation?A bit to much if you ask me.
The Apothecary is only part of the personal retinue of a Character. So it gives the unit with the character the InvulnerableSave.
The Techmarine is an other matter because it is now a independend character with its own retinue of Servtors which can carry heavy weapons and cc-gear.
Essentially its an Devastator unit with attached Librarian. For HIM i could imagine some kind of save for destroyed vehicles (for Blessing of the Omnissia). But not a separate one for the Apothecary.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:03 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Apr. 24 2007,14:50)
QUOTE

(Dwarf Supreme @ Apr. 24 2007,20:07)
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(BlackLegion @ Apr. 24 2007,13:33)
QUOTE
Damn your're right. No Vindicator in 40k before 3rd Edition :(

People forget how many 40K vehicles actually started with AT/SM 1.

I know. The Leman Russ, Basilisk, Hellhound, Griffon, Razorback and AttackBike all where introduced via WD to Wh40k 2nd Edition.

AT/SM 1 = Adeptus Titanicus / Space Marine

In other words, 1st ed. Epic.

A majority of the vehicles in WH40K started in Epic before they were migrated over to WH40K.  Pretty much with the fall of 2nd ed. Epic and the end of The Golden Age did the flow of new stuff reverse.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:07 pm 
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I know but the Wh40k counterparts looked better than the epic ones...until E40k was developed and the Epic minis stared to look like their Wh40k counterparts :D
It was a back and forth so to speak :)
BTW i started with WH40k and GW games back in 1996 :) I knew the GoldenAge :D

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:22 pm 
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Re Veterans: Codex Marines have Veterans which are essentially beefed up Tactical Marines.
But you can have ChapterTraits which allow VeteranAssaultSquads or even VeteranDevastatorSquads!

BloodAngels are a prime example for VeteranAssaultSquads. Even with the upcoming new Codex whichis released in WD.

But problem is: According to current Codex no Squad can buy LandRaiders as transport vehicles. Only Rhinos and Razorbacks.
Only Terminators can have LandRaiders as attached transport vehicle.

So essentially everyone can be transported via LandRaiders if it is bought as HeavySupport choice.


PS. Hmm interesting..AssaultSquads can't have Rhinos or Razorbacks even if they drop their Jumppacks..strange. But DarkAngels AssaultSquads can use Rhinos (but no Razorbacks)if they drop their Jumppacks.

If rumours are true then all new SmCodices will have the same layout as the DarkAngels Codex. The rumours about the BloodAnbgels seemto proof this.




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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:23 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Apr. 24 2007,15:01)
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#2 and #3 InvulnerableSave to the whole formation?A bit to much if you ask me.
The Apothecary is only part of the personal retinue of a Character. So it gives the unit with the character the InvulnerableSave.
The Techmarine is an other matter because it is now a independend character with its own retinue of Servtors which can carry heavy weapons and cc-gear.
Essentially its an Devastator unit with attached Librarian. For HIM i could imagine some kind of save for destroyed vehicles (for Blessing of the Omnissia). But not a separate one for the Apothecary.

I don't think that giving invulnerable save is that big of a deal.  It is only a 6+ secondary armor save.  All it means is that, on average, 1 out of every 6 units that fail their armor save will get saved.  If you stick an Apothecary into a Tactical detachment with 6 INF units in it you are only going to return, on average, 1 unit back to the board during the life of the infantry.  You may return more, you may return none.

If you subscribe to how WH40K, which deals with only a tactical skirmish, handles Techmarines then yes, they are FF nasties.  But they had to do that to make the miniatures sell, because the ability to repair a vehicle in a couple of minutes during an assault is kinda boring (and silly).  But when you blow out the scale of a game from a skirmish to an operation then the idea of a FF King Techmarine is kind silly.  Why would you send a marine to Mars to be trained by the Adeptus Mechanicus to repair equipment and then have him fight as a FF monster instead?

Part of the reason why I think Apothecaries and Techmarines should do what they do is because it harkens back to 2nd ed. Epic, where they gave an extra armor save to every infantry stand / vehicle (as appropriate) within 10cm to represent their abilities.  Considering how Epic:A handles space marine officers I thoght it would make more sense to keep their abilities within the unit instead of an area effect.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:37 pm 
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The Techmarines Servitors are there to ensure that he isn't interrupted while he is repairing something or assist him in the repairs.

In 2nd Edition the Techmarine did the same. Walk over to a damaged vehicle, spend a turn not moving, toll a dice and look if it is fixed. Only without the assisting servitors (which where used to handle support weapons like the Tarantula instead).

Apothecary too. He moved to a "dead" model, rolls a dice and if lucky the wounded model rises with 1 wound left.

Now he is only able to ignore the first failed armour save per turn for his attached squad.

And this rules are true. Just looked them up in Codex Angels of Death.




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:44 am 
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(Blarg D Impaler @ Apr. 24 2007,21:50)
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Create Dreadnought formations of 4x Dreadnoughts for 200 points and allow the Land Raider upgrade.

I would love to see them but think they would do better for character in a different list.


(Blarg D Impaler @ Apr. 24 2007,21:50)
QUOTE
If Land Raiders are too good to drop their points from 100 to 75 points each, yet not good enough to be 100 points each, what are you going to do?  Do you downgrade their abilities until they are worth 75 points each, or do you upgrade them to be worth 100 points each?


Funnily enough they are worth 100 each for tacs and devs, but no more than 75 for terminators and land raiders.

re space wolves - I thought their scouts were vets?


(Hena @ Apr. 24 2007,22:43)
QUOTE
Only thing that I don't seem to get a clear answer is how ATSKNF half BMs in assaults is rounded. TRC has round up. This IMO is not a good way to do it as in every other situation (in ATSKNF) it is round down. I prefer round down, but prevent the +1 for no BMs if there is one on Marines. Also I don't like the remove 2BM per leader.

I have round up as it was pointed out it is a big change to g from 1 to none, and it seemed easier to specifically state round up than may not remove last bm.


(nealhunt @ Apr. 24 2007,20:07)
QUOTE
point changes -
+25 Termies
+25 LC
-25 armor formations

Hunter upgrade- 1-2 Hunters, available to armor formations
TSKNF changes - half BM in assault, Leader removes 2 BMs

+5cm move to Vindicators and maybe to Attack Bikes

Maybe Dreadnought upgrade at 1-4, instead of 1-2

(ed) FF upgrades :)

I would add to that scouts not being able to have drop pods. You haven't lived until your entire deployment zone is covered in deathwind/orbital bombardment attacks and subsequently and more importantly blast markers. All for 950 points. Sometimes the scouts live too. In my chapter we don't waste geneseed on scouts until they have completed at least two of these missions.

Also single warhounds at 275 points. It may not be a problem in the US but here in the UK it sucks (to use an american term I believe).

I would also change the sniper upgrade to scouts to 75 points for the whole formation. Why? It just isn't possible for me to convert scouts, and any other systems seem to be cheating (like the one with rocks on the base, thats the ones with sniper rifles).

Finally as suggested elsewhere tornadoes at 5 points.

Anyway a list with all the above changes (sorry blarg, no Dreads and other characters) to the rulebook is attached below in case people want to see how it all looks in practice.

(Oh and fix marauder bombers - start at 250 for two for now at least.)

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:04 am 
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But but but but but.......

With all the possible AV's floating around (most formations can take a minimum of 4 (2 hunters, 2 vindicators) before anything else and one wonders how they reach the ground.

It would be far better I think at least if all the marine rhino based support vehicles were available as a straight 1-2 upgrade (choose from vindicators, hunters, predators and maybe whirlwinds if balanced - if not have whirlwind/hunter upgrade seperate as its a nice option for whirlwinds), including/not including other vehicles depending on chapter. Hell even if you don't want to add new vehicles I think the vindicator and hunter upgrades at least should be combined, I don't agree with being able to add 4 marine av's to a formation (Currently a pred formation could be 4 preds, 2 vindies and now 2 hunters as well).

Then up the Thawk by 25 points, drop the assault detachment to 150 and allow the above upgrade, add in the dred formation (possibly - what upgrades? Max of one in the army?)

Its in general more variety to ground formations/maybe slightly strong tank formations (hard to tell to date), better ground assault formation, air assault slightly stronger/weaker depending on formations used, viable mechanised terminators and finally a Land Raider mbt style formation.

A quick edit to the above produces the following list.

Incidentally adding some of the other possible units (Crusader, Helios etc) can give more options.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:06 am 
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I note incidentally we have moved away though from the topic, which was simply should it be two lists or one combined one, and ended up discussing the changes needed by one or the other!

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Soren
 Post subject: Changing the core Marine list
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:00 am 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Apr. 25 2007,04:04)
QUOTE
[...] Hell even if you don't want to add new vehicles I think the vindicator and hunter upgrades at least should be combined, I don't agree with being able to add 4 marine av's to a formation (Currently a pred formation could be 4 preds, 2 vindies and now 2 hunters as well).

Then up the Thawk by 25 points, drop the assault detachment to 150 and allow the above upgrade, add in the dred formation (possibly - what upgrades? Max of one in the army?)


[...]

What is the problem on an eight strong marine armored detachment? They die like droves unter fire, cost an immense amount of points and cannot match any equal sized armored formation in game. (maybe orks, but the cost for them is nearly halved).

So what would a Thawk exactly get for this +25pts?




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