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Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:24 am
Posts: 233
Location: Albany, NY
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| Quote (Ilushia @ 21 May 2006 (21:36)) |
Personally I just don't feel that these 'solutions' actually solve the problem in question. My basic issue with Marines is the ability of the enemy to hammer them, badly, long before they get into range. Marines just do not have the numbers to survive being bombarded at long range while they try to get into range of their weapons. And I'm not seeing how 'more short range uber-shootyness' is going to solve that. Orks are really the only army which has shorter range then Marines, and they're much more mobile. |
The Eldar might be arguably in the same boat as the Marines, but with their Hit and Run rules they can move forward, shoot, then run away (forcing the enemy to persue instead of sustain) while the marines can't do anything like that. If the marines double forward to get within 15cm and fire on an enemy with their multi-melta dev-squads then virtually any enemy in the game can either sustain fire back on them or charge them in melee and make them pay for it. This just doesn't feel like a good solution to me (I'd much rather have Land Speeders then Multi-Melta Dev-Squads anyway, given their mobility and Scout rules making them harder to bombard).
This does help make the marines more shooty, but it doesn't assist them where they get really hurt: Getting into shooty range. A Space Marine Tactical formation theoretically has the same fire-power as an IG Infantry Formation (Slightly worse, but only very slightly), on the other hand the IG infantry formation can sustain significantly more casualties then the Marines can. And more to the point, when fighting marines the IG Infantry can afford to sit back and let the marines come to them, since they're backed up by long-range fire weapons 90% of the time (Manticore Batteries are my favorite) and that means the Marines either close to short range FAST or they get cut down by artillery. So the Marines double forwards in their Rhinos, open up on the IG, kill 1-2 and place 2-3 blast markers. THe IG respond by sustaining fire and shooting back with 6 AP 4+ shots. Killing 1-2 marine bases. The marines, being outnumbered, lose that fight badly. |
Again, I don't like manufactured situations, or comparasons of single formations; they tend to never actually happen in combat. ?For example, you said that the Tacticals had to double to avoid getting caught by Manticores. ?The total points for a battery of Manticores and a company of IG infantry is 500. ?That means the Marine player has enough points to buy a Scout detachment, which would be garrisoned forward. ?Thus, a more accurate situation is that the Tacticals double forward into FF range, deploy either into cover (if any is convenient) or touching their Rhinos (which give them the cover mod), and fire as you said before (killing 1-2 stands, laying 2-3 blast markers). ?
The Marine player would then retain the initiative (rolls anything but the 1) and engage with the Scouts into FF (at worst), with the tacticals supporting. ?The Marines roll 6 at 4, 4 at 5, and 5 at 6; average rolls mean 5 hits (== 5 kills) on the IG. ?The IG roll 12 at 5 against the Scouts, yielding 4 hits (== 3 kills). ?The IG now have more than twice the units of the Scouts, but the Marines have no blast markers, and 2 more kills, making the Marines up 2; statistically, the Marines win 60+% of the time, and tie ~15%. ?Chances are that the IG company is broken (along with the 150 point Scout detachment:), and the Taticals are right in front of where they want to be without any BM. ?Even if the IG win the assault, the IG company should still be broken (5 more bm added to the 2-3 before on 6-7 stands left), and the Tacs only have 1 BM for supporting a losing assault.
The Manticores then let loose, killing 1-2 Marine stands (who got the -1 cover modifier) and 1-2 Rhinos for 7-8 BMs (still not enough to break them). ?Depending on luck, the Tacs aren't even slowed (if 2 stands and 1 rhino die). ?Next turn, the Manticores have to reload and the Tacticals have to marshall.
This is just the way I see things, and I'll admit I'm not the most experienced person around. Yes the Marines can air-drop their dev/tactical squads into the IG. But we all know that, the point of this conversation is: Should Marines be FORCED to use air drops and assaults to win the day? |
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and ive got the general impression from the reading the experimental rules that almost every list has access to TK weapons. yes i know that SM can get the warlord but that is a lot of points and i prefer to feild my SM on there own (ie with out any navy or titan support) as a personal preferance. so i found whenever my opponent toke out his gargent(which was a lot) i either had to commit a large portion of my forces in a termie assualt with lots of supporting fire or ignore it. i would just like at least one option to take out titans with out resorting to the other parts of the imperial warmachine. 