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The Land Raider - formation price drop

 Post subject: Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:34 pm 
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They already are and have been for years. Stompzilla is an EUK player so I guess he's unaware of that.

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 Post subject: Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:56 pm 
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Really?

Because they're 5+ in the book.


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 Post subject: Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:00 pm 
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We're talking about NetEA lists here not the gw rulebook.

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 Post subject: Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:32 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Neal, but would you say LR fms are worth 50 points more than current priced WHs? I'm not sure I feel that's accurate.

I'd say 50 is pretty close.

Toughness - I'm not sure where the "about equal toughness" judgment above came from. LRs are definitely better.

Warhound/LRs

One turn hits to kill
AT htk: 8.75/16
MW htk: 6.5/8
TK htk: 5/4
TKd3 htk: 2.5/4

One volley hits to break
AT: 6.5/12
MW: 5/6
TK: 4/3
TKd3: 2/3

Two volley hits to break
AT: 4/8
MW: 3.5/4
TK: 3/2
TKd3: 1.5/2

Three volleys auto-breaks a WH, regardless of damage. And, of course, anyone trying to kill a Warhound will use normal AT hits before using MW/TK, so the in-game disparity in terms of toughness against MW/TK is more in favor of the LRs than the tables show. Counting the inherent WE benefits, fearless v TSKNF, rallies that benefit LRs more strongly and shield regen that benefits Warhounds, I'd say the LRs are probably 35-40% tougher.

Assault - LRs have better FF but no shields, so the break even point on kills is ~4 hits - less than that and the Warhound is ahead, more than that and the LR armor sheds more damage than the shields. That drops if the Warhound loses shields prior to the assault (highly likely). And, of course, LRs are better as support and for unit count. LRs have weaker CC but better armor (almost double) in base contact. Even counting for potential loss of ability from prior casualties, I'd say LRs are ahead in assault.

Firepower - The LRs have the equivalent of 2+ titan weapon systems between them. Maybe 2.5 as a rough estimate? Counting for degradation due to suppression and casualties, round down to 2. Warhounds suffer much less with a Double while LRs benefit a lot more from Sustain Fire. Warhounds have the benefit of an alpha strike so I think they come out ahead.

Between assault and ranged fire, I think you have to count the two options as neck-and-neck on total offensive power.

Speed - Same speed, but WE/Walker makes the Warhound a little better, so let's give them about 10% on speed.

The LR formation has options the Warhound does not - air transport and other upgrades - which have to be paid for but are still tactical options. You can count that for 1-2% or round up here or there.

When you slap all that in the square root rule, you end up with something in the range of 15% point difference. That's solidly in the 40 point range. Since that's a ballpark estimate, I'd say 50 points is probably fine.


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 Post subject: Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:41 pm 
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It's probably worth noting that shields can be recharged, warhounds counter charge 10cm with their nice cc stat, and that land raiders can be suppressed, especially once they take casualties. I'm more on a 25pt difference in price kinda opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:42 pm 
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The two things that stick out that weren't mentioned:
Degradation of Land Raider performance as they take casualties
Regeneration of Void Shields

EDIT: Or E&C can cover that for me, I guess :p


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 Post subject: Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:38 pm 
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nealhunt wrote:
Speed - Same speed, but WE/Walker makes the Warhound a little better, so let's give them about 10% on speed.


Isn't it 25cm vs 30cm?

Also, I suspect that Warhounds being ahead on shooting is more important than LRs being ahead in assaults. The Marines have plenty of FF units as it is, you're taking Warhounds for speed, resilience and shooting.


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 Post subject: Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:46 pm 
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Maybe I'm forgetting too much high school math, but how does the square root rule apply to all that?

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 Post subject: Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:01 pm 
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Square root rule is that if a thing is twice as tough or twice as hard-hitting, it should only lead to a price increase of 1.44 (sqrt(2)) - double the points only if it's BOTH twice as tough and twice as dangerous.


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 Post subject: Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:36 pm 
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Ah. Thanks, Ulrik. :)

Looking at what you said, neal, when you add in the actual speed difference, I'd say the LRs are maybe 10% or 20% better, tops. Depending on how you weight speed and durability, of course. But still, that would seem to equal out to them having nearly the same price.

Should both be 300, I wonder?

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 Post subject: Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:44 pm 
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I would play both at 300. Though 300 would definitely need pred a's to be dropped to 250, which I've been calling for anyway, aftEr playing them for some years at 275.

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 Post subject: Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:20 pm 
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Really, why don't we just balance the whole list around the Warhound? :P

nb. Not actually a joke.

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 Post subject: Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:33 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I would play both at 300. Though 300 would definitely need pred a's to be dropped to 250, which I've been calling for anyway, aftEr playing them for some years at 275.

And this is the point where the Marine list would start to be buffed as a whole, isn't it?

The above list would certainly allow the following, though whether it is abbusive or not would need testing

300 Land Raider
275 Warhound (joke)
275 Warhound (again - :)
250 Pred
250 Pred
250 Pred
250 Pred
250 Pred
250 Pred
250 Pred
250 Pred
150 TBolt


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 Post subject: Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:02 am 
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Is that any worse than

LR
WH
WH
TB
Land Speeder
Land Speeder
Land Speeder
Land Speeder
Land Speeder
Land Speeder
Land Speeder
Land Speeder
Land Speeder
Land Speeder

Plus, at least Predators might get used... :D


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 Post subject: Re: The Land Raider - formation price drop
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 4:17 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Is that any worse than


Yes as most of those units (on your example) are LV and can be hit by anyone with any type of firing weapon. ;)

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