Yep that's exactly it BL and inv save is just a bit meh for a SC in a Dreadnought.


It's definitely an option but, in fact you'd end up with an Inv Save as well doing it that way so my version is slightly less OTT. From my perspective I'm not trying to actually gain a Venerable Dreadnought (I'd even do away with that title), I'm trying to gain a SC Dreadnought, without having to shove a Character into one and have to remove the Inv Save. Can you see my logic?

I can see the logic there, but I still question why just using a Character upgrade isn't enough.

After all, Dreadnoughts have a 3+ save these days, that's almost as good as RA4+ anyway (Macro-Weapons excluded), is it not?

(And a Macro-Weapon hitting a Tactical SC (The most common SC type in my experience) will leave him just as vulnerable as a Dreadnought being hit by a MW)


To put it another way, if adding a Character upgrade to a Dreadnought isn't good enough for your tastes, is it because you think a "Character Dreadnought" should be so considerably better (Noticably better than making a "Character Tactical unit" or a "Character Assault unit", etc), or because you simply don't think Dreadnoughts are a particularly good unit in the first place?

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In part, I just see 4+ RA as a better way to keep the SC alive versus normal weapons as 3+ and a 6+ Inv save on top of that really isn't that solid given the range and plethora of AT fire in the game. A Character Dread won't be able to hide in a formation if it's part of a foot infantry formation without vehicles (e.g Terminators etc).

Whereas a Character Tactical unit can hide amid that infantry, has cover saves(obviously not vs MW) and an Inv. save at the end. The 4+RA is only my way of trying to give the SC Dread somewhat of a lifeline - plus a more interesting option to actually use a dreadnought in a game. And of course just having a straight up Character Dread is highly interesting to me (and hopefully others too) but it won't survive long enough with just an added inv save.

I just need another name for the unit if Venerable Dread needs to be used by other lists.

How does Ancient Dreadnought sound?

Okay so it's a meta thing.

If it's more vulnerable because it's the only AT target in a formation, why not add other Dreadnoughts to help shoulder the burden of taking incoming fire, rather than invent new tougher stats?

A Tactical SC is no better armoured than a normal Tactical unit, he's just got plenty of buddies to jump in the way of bullets first... so why not give a Dreadnought SC some Dreadnought buddy-bulletshields too?

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Meatshields rock

AT Hit vs Regular Dreadnought Character = 27.777'% chance killed.
AT Hit vs 4+RA Dreadnought Character = 20.083'% chance killed.

That less than 7% difference means that one in every 14.4 hits actually makes a difference. I'm not sure it's worth worrying about that it warrants it's own statline. Especially if it's only being based on a single character (Bjorn). None of the other special characters* (Dante, Jubal, Helbrecht, Azrael or Vulkan) are deemed to need a specific statline. At best, inclusion of 'Special Characters' in an appendix or within specific scenarios. For the most part, not necessary.

* The only special character I see, is the Emperor's Champion, in the Black Templars list. And that's not a specific singular character, but rather a title bestowed upon a chosen. No different rules wise, than the Blood Angels Death Company.

Morgan Vening

Definitely a valid option but I wanted to trial this way first. As I've said if it turns out it's not right I'll change it.

The difference is, from what I've read theres a specific mention of Dreadnoughts, not a Dreadnought leading forces as the dreadnoughts they mention are ancient and their knowledge of battle is immense. So it goes back to what I was saying earlier. What rank can be a SC? It's fairly ambiguous so I would like to trial what I have. This is a playtest list correct? So I'd like to do so. Because if we never trial new things how will we know if they will or won't work? Who knows, this unit type may even give us a view on how to structure venerable dreadnoughts in other lists.

On a completely separate subject, does anyone have a view as to how the Wolf Scouts should be armed?

And what do people prefer as the Long Fangs weapon stats. At this stage I would prefer a separate formation.

For me, it's easier for the long fangs to have all of the same type of weapon, i'd favour 2x twin missile launchers.

The Wolf Scouts is something that I'd struggled with, from the point of view of the game itself they're ideal for setting up crossfires and preparing engagements, so they should get some shooting, I just went with giving each stand a plasma gun shot, but it's been some time since I actually looked at the Codex. Do they still get sniper rifle shots (probably a stupid question, since GW is probably only one step away from letting Nids have Land Raiders 'so you can use all of your collection' in it's codexes).

LOL Hello_ dave! Emperor save the imperium when that happens.

The new codex has the Wolf Scouts with quite a few optional weapons upgrades from bolt pistols and chainswords as their base. Heavy Bolters, Plasma Guns, sniper rifles, melta-guns, missile launchers, flamers.... throw a rock and you'll hit some weapon or other

I'm thinking of giving them heavy bolters to replace the sniper rifles and plasma guns (and also adding sniper to them is then simple as they have the same range and to hit stat). Much like the Codex Scouts in Epic. However, two units will be able to upgrade to sniper. So then the main differences between the two scout types is that the Wolf Scouts will get 2 sniper upgrades at +25 each, teleport and better CC/FF stats and no transport for a greater cost.

Why not check a Space Wolf board on the internet and find out what the standard suggested tournament loadout is for SW scouts. As that was how things were done when JJ created EA for things like Tac Squads.

It's ok 'Ratty, I've just decided (locked it in print ) that I'll go with the above weaponry as a start. I doubt it will be too much of a problem given scouts have had this set up (barring the 2xsniper units). The only things needing testing are the increased CC/FF stats and teleport.

With regards to Venerable Dreadnoughts, the issue for me is this; Sure, some Venerable Dreadnoughts could possibly be of Supreme Commander level, but they aren't all that high up. Venerable Dreadnoughts are an iconic unit of the Space Wolves, and should be represented in such a way that more than one of them could be taken.

I'd drop back to FF5+ on wolf scouts. Is there any reason they're better than normal scouts at FF? Are they really as good as a tactical squad at FF? They're still awesome with CC3+ and teleport.