I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that perhaps even the FF4+ 75 point upgrade is about where it should be. The main problem with land raiders is they disintegrate in assaults. With FF4+ they are slightly better, but you still get to auto-win against them by basing them.

Both the other changes are necessary. I quite like having the single tornado upgrade in the land speeder formation, but I don't feel like it's worth 10 points when that really means 50 points.

The Vindicator I still wouldn't bother taking at 50 points, but I don't think I'd take it as a free upgrade tbh. It just doesn't really gel with how the formations in that list work at the competitive level.

I do not see Chaos needing to change their cost to keep in line with this change.

We have played with 75 point Land Raiders for both Marine and Chaos armies for the past year with no complaints either way. I understand the reasoning, yet at some point, you just have to say that 75 points is the minimum regardless for the playtest duration.

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Well I promise to assemble and paint my Landing Craft if Vindicators go down to 50 each (as I already have 4 of them painted)

It's not a FF drop. FF5+ is the original stat.



I don't see why that's nessesary.

Chaos armies already get an effective 10pt discount because they don't have "free" rhinos which have to be discarded if you take a Land Raider, so a 65pt Chaos Land Raider would effectively be 20pts cheaper than a 75pt loyalist Land Raider, for example (if a 10pt discount was felt to be not enough to account for the loss of ATSKNF)...



Certainly armies of FF5+ 75pt Land Raiders have not been destroying all before them in UK tournaments.

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1. Tornado to go to free upgrade.
-I'm apprehensive on this, although I can't really qualify as to why.

2. Land Raider upgrade cost to 85.
-I think the 85 points is a better move.  Its closer to the original price and retains the stats.  I don't have a problem with math and -combined with the Typhoon and Tornado upgrade costs- allows things to piece together fine.  Although I do find it ironic that Hena of all people is arguing for a non-25 point denomination.  

3. Vindicator will gain Walker.
I rarely see these taken so they probably need some love.  Walker ain't gonna do it IMO and it probably needs some cost reduction.

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Sign me up for the majority opinion (i.e. Free/75/50)

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Honda

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The apprehension I have for Vindicators at 50 points is LC air assaults.  That's a pretty cheap way to pack 4+FF attacks in, and it puts vindicators in the thick of things where their range/speed is no longer the drawback it is for a normal deployment.

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Neal

50pts can also buy you a Macro Weapon 4+ (or better) FF and CC attack, leader, and an invulnerable save for an existing unit...

...I'm talking about adding a Librarian Character, of course... which still looks more attractive under most circumstances than a 50pt Vindicator, IMHO.

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That's a good point of comparison but Librarians don't add a strong ranged attack or unit count.

==

In thinking about the LR formations and it seems to be that adding Vindicators at 50 points to them is very attractive.  Stick them at the back where they won't be allocated hits until after the 4+RA, so they don't add additional casualties but they do pad the formation with cheap units for BM/suppression issues.  The LRs want to get within 30cm anyway for max firepower and with the 25cm move there's no disconnect there.  If you're building an SM Armor formation, I can't see much reason not to.

I found that 4 Preds + 2 Vindis + Hunter was a decent armor formation at 500 points (75 point Vindis) in a lot of games.  This would put 4 LRs + 2 Vindis + Hunter at only 525 points.

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Neal

No comment on the Land Raiders, as I haven't played them yet.

Re: the Vindicator, I've used them quite a bit at 275 with 25cm and walker and have found them decent. I tend to play lists based on a fluff perspective rather than a tournament prospective though, so take my opinion as you will.

As a middle ground between price reduction, what about giving them Ignore Cover on their FF with the current pricing?

Re: the Tornado, I've used these only a half a dozen times but 10 points seems steep.  I still think a FF of 4+ would make them more worth while.

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Aye but the point is, I can still see more Librarians than Vindicators being taken.


"very attractive" is a lot better than "never going to be taken", IMO.

Thunderhawk Gunships and Terminators are very attractive too!

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Vindicators have been 50pts apiece in Blood Angels list for quite a while now (albeit not having their own formation) and I don't think anyone found them too good or anything. Though maybe people are just accustomed to ignoring them by now