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Black Templars V3.5

 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:02 pm 
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I'm very much in favour of trying out Gavin's THT stats. They're not very representative, but seem a lot more balanced.

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 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:53 am 
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Quote: (GlynG @ Sep. 26 2009, 23:45 )

Quote: (Onyx @ Sep. 26 2009, 15:30 )

Can't remember the last time I saw a Land Raider Crusader without a Multi-Melta...

Whilst I understand that some people have a problem with the MWFF, removing an official weapon completely because they don't like the effect it has in game, just doesn't feel right.

The Multi-Melta is 100% part of a LR Crusader.

Actually no you're wrong; the multi-melta is an often taken upgrade, it's not part of the basic tank and so removing it for balance reasons is perfectly fine.

Actually, I said "Can't remember the last time I saw a Land Raider Crusader without a Multi-Melta".

Do a Google image search for LR Crusaders. Do an image search on these forums for the LR Crusaders that have been scrach-built. Point made.

There's a reason that you see the Multi-Melta on (just about) every LR Crusader (it is an official weapon available to the tank), and we should endevour to include them here.




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 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:01 am 
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The point about hit allocation is key to the problems with the THT. Being WE, the rules state that you allocate the first two hits to the nearest WE before allocating them to the other one. The result is that you have to get three hits before one gets allocated to the THT containing the bulk of the troops. Being WE they can also be used to block fire and so can cover troops disembarking, and can also barge (as other have pointed out). Basically this permits the player to use these as an assault vehicle, where they really ought to be used much more cautiously.

Making them DC1 has several effects:- it reduces their assault capability, makes them much more vulnerable to AA (and ground) fire and brings their cost in line with the THawk.

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 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:27 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ Sep. 27 2009, 06:56 )

They cannot barge terrain.

You can't land in terrain?
Quote: 

If the aircraft lands in dangerous terrain it must take a dangerous terrain test.


I thought the above allowed this. Combined with stuff lining the edge of, say, a wood and the nessecity to place them as close as possible to their original position touching the barger and they can end up outside. Certainly works a treat against siegers in trenches.

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 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5
PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:35 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ Sep. 27 2009, 06:56 )

Quote: (Ginger @ Sep. 27 2009, 04:01 )

The point about hit allocation is key to the problems with the THT. Being WE, the rules state that you allocate the first two hits to the nearest WE before allocating them to the other one. The result is that you have to get three hits before one gets allocated to the THT containing the bulk of the troops. Being WE they can also be used to block fire and so can cover troops disembarking, and can also barge (as other have pointed out). Basically this permits the player to use these as an assault vehicle, where they really ought to be used much more cautiously.

They are 2 DC so can barge 3 units without trapping their content. Also they cannot barge anyone but their target formation. They cannot barge terrain.

As I said interceptor can choose direction it hits it. So you can hit it with ground flak and interceptors getting high probability to hit one THT 3 or 4 times. I really don't think you can have a free THT and manage to fit 3 of them anywhere on board in realistic manner. Again ... show me report where this unit is abused. If it so magnificiently good that shouldn't be hard is it?

Talk is easy, batreps count.

The point on fighter bombers is well made unless
- The opponent has no fighters
- The THT are used before the opposition has had a chance to set up CAP

On 'barging', don't forget there are two THTs so a DC2 can effectively barge up to 6 enemy units. And a DC2 unit can afford to take a Dangerous Terrain hit so can land in woods etc without too much concern.
OTOH a DC1 unit cannot barge at all (because that would automatically lock troops in) and would probably avoid DT, especially if it was carrying troops.

The point of the proposal is that while 2x DC1 at 4+RA is statistically the same as 2x DC2 at 5+RA, it resolves a number of the other issues inherent in a formation of two WE by making the consequences of suffering a single point of damage fatal.

And as for bat reps, I am not sure they are very usefull when discussing the THT because the various elements of the debate are either very clear (like your point on enemy A/c) or are too coplex because of the interaction of terrain, forces, timing and positioning etc.

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 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:45 am 
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I have been using the Templars list on and off for a while now.  The land raider Crusader I think has a couple of major drawbacks.

I am not fussed about the MW loss, although it does add some MW's are needed at times, but the FF value seems wrong.

The standard LR, has a FF of 4+, and is only armed with a storm bolter and 2 x twin lascannons...  How has that got a better FF value than a tank that is designed for supporting CC troops?


Really that is my only problem with the unit.  

As for the Transport Thunderhawks, I have never used them, but given that other units with storm bolters have a FF of 4+ seems about right.


Apart from these two items, I rather like this list it adds alot of flavor, which I do like.

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 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:58 am 
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I think you may be misreading the unit stats, it has 3 attacks at 5+ rather than 1 at 4+.

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 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:02 am 
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No I did see that they have an EA.

so I was thinking they are only .66 to hit each turn, rather than the .5 for the standard LR (because they have 2 attacks at .  But what you mean is 2 x Hurricans (15cm) small arms + 1 EA is three all up.

Possibly been playing this not as you have designed it.. wounder how many others have been cheating them selves out of an attack...


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 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:20 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ Sep. 30 2009, 06:01 )

I'll be dropping this to 5+ for next iteration, if you don't mind Pulsar?

no i don't mind, FF 4+ is good, but 5+ is ok too

and yes By thefloppy1 LR crusaders have 3 attacks, but other people have made the same mistake as you, we might need to make the stats easier to see.

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 Post subject: Black Templars V3.5
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:24 pm 
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Quote: (Pulsar @ Sep. 30 2009, 12:20 )

and yes By thefloppy1 LR crusaders have 3 attacks, but other people have made the same mistake as you, we might need to make the stats easier to see.

Could you just make it "Hurricane Bolters, EA(+2)" to prevent confusion?

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