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NetEA Marine list planned changes
alansa
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:25 pm 
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When Living rulebook process was first started (for all the specialist games) I wasn't aware that Jervis had placed such restrictions.

I don't think the community where either either, otherwise I think there'd be much less development work done on the published lists.

Either I'm wrong about that, or Jervis has changed his mind more recently.

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I agree with most of the SM changes proposed here. However (and this is just me)  I won't be using them or any other NetERC changes, unless the majority of UK tournament scene uses them.

I do not think that will happen unless JJ publishes the changes on the SG site. Otherwise all this is an exercise in writing house rules.

I think Ginger feels the same way and this is why he hopes we pester JJ with only the absolutely critical changes, otherwise JJ my be put off. And if he has any  restrictions to changes that he won't conceed then , we should know what they are and comply.

------------------

For me, he big question is - What is the NetERC trying to achieve?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:37 pm 
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(alansa @ Apr. 07 2008,14:25)
QUOTE
When Living rulebook process was first started (for all the specialist games) I wasn't aware that Jervis had placed such restrictions.

I don't think the community where either either, otherwise I think there'd be much less development work done on the published lists.

Either I'm wrong about that, or Jervis has changed his mind more recently.

No, it was always more or less like that.  Jervis wanted the lists to be finished once published with, at most, a few minor tweaks.  Any new units, formations, etc., would be featured in new lists, even if they were just minor variations.

In the long-term absence of any guidance from SG, the various champions sort of came to the conclusion that we were only getting one shot rather than the ongoing support of the original plan.  The philosophy became "go for the wish list to get as much from this one shot as possible" instead of "minor tweaks and plan for variants."

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alansa
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:24 pm 
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Ah yeah I do remember the no new units rule and formations rule.

I perfectly understand Jervis' concern.

Critically new versions of a list have to be "backwards compatible" so that army compositions are still valid under a new list.

Certainly this means no points increases. Points decreases won't break compatibility.

Changed formation structures shouldn't invalidate old compositions (obviously) but be optional and additional.

Adding new units and formations doesn't break compatibility so that's there for a different reasons.

As to unit stats, Serious nurfing would be out. Boosting would just be a pleasent surprise to a player who wasn't aware. In general changes shouldn't be so radical as to change pre-conceptions of the unit and the way it is used.

Apart from all this I think many of the fixes proposed here could be implemented

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:02 am 
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I second alansa.

But if this doesn't work then implement this changes for a new Space Marine army list.  So it isn't the "Codex Astartes Army List" but the "Ultramarines Army List" or "Imperial Fists Army List" or "Howling Griffons Army List" or "Codex Astartes Tactical Pattern Omega Army List" or...just name it :)

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alansa
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:05 am 
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That's a great idea BL.

Still (for me at least) if the tournament scene here doesn't adopt it I probably wouldn't use it - no matter what it's called. And as mentioned before, that probably won't happen unless JJ bungs it on SG.

Still it's a possibility.

I wonder... How many folks here want this stuff to be (inter)national, open tournament, interclub compatible. Or are people happy with club/house rules.

Sorry if I'm taking things OT.

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zombocom
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:38 am 
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I absolutely understand, and agree, with JJ's stance.

It is vital for EPIC's continuity that any army lists made with the printed versions of the lists remain legal if these lists are to be accepted for tournament play.

With this is mind, it gives us a lot more restriction, but doesn't mean we can't adjust anything.

Stat changes are still perfectly possible, but increasing points costs isn't.

Ditto the structure of the army list. Adding new options (like the hunter upgrades JJ put through) is perfectly acceptable, but removing them isn't.

I wonder if it would be possible to come up with lists for the 6 printed book lists following this methodology which fixed the problems inherent in the list. It's certainly a challenge!

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alansa
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:55 am 
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(Hena @ Apr. 08 2008,10:35)
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I really would like to be able to do a list that tournaments internationally would be willing to use. I don't know how I can do that though as it seems as everyone wants to it their own way.

I think it depends on what you say your mission statement is

If you aim is to get changes internationally recognised as the standard then I think there is no way about it but to get JJ to post on SG.

Otherwise, as I see it, the next best thing you can do is make this place *the* 'authority' in a house version (not including the french that is)

Within clubs, people may adopt the rules here as standard, but I don't think open tournaments will. Not without serious convincing anyway...

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Moscovian
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:50 am 
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There won't be any list changes beyond what is posted.  Jervis was quite clear on this.  He wanted no chance of someone showing up for an event and being told their list was illegal.


I find this humurous given that Epic is allowed only a small (if any) presence at the big events...  At least here in the States.  I contacted Games-Workshop repeatedly asking if they could free up some space for Epic at the Baltimore Games Day and was shot down each time.

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alansa
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:20 pm 
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I have, for some time, come to think that the health and size of the tournament scene in each country is a big factor in people's attitudes to rules changes.

The UK epic scene comparable healthy.

Epic is represented at various multi system events around the uk, mostly at GW headquaters Warhammer World by various third party clubs and organisations, with one usually hosted by GW themselves. On top of this are a number of Epic only events dotted around the place.

I think this health is the reason for UK players comparative conservetivness. So many tournaments hosted by so many orgs means a leaning towards house rules are not satisfactory.

In other parts of the world I think people say "f**k it". There's no real advantage to a GW standard and we can do what we like, and crucially, and manage it fine without any problems; As demonstrated by the French community!

Note: Only one tournament is hosted by GW. But it isn't the fact that it is the official GW epic tournament and that it will use the SG rules only. Rather, it's that, at the current time, ?almost all UK tournies will use the official SG published rules only (occasionally with allowences for experimental lists that are deemed near completion by the organisers - others are far more strict)




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Markconz
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:57 pm 
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(Hena @ Apr. 08 2008,09:35)
QUOTE
I really would like to be able to do a list that tournaments internationally would be willing to use. I don't know how I can do that though as it seems as everyone wants to it their own way.

Getting all international tournaments to use NetERC lists now without any SG support... how achievable do you think that is (rate 1-10 on a scale of confidence)? Can you think of any concrete strategy that might shift that confidence level up a notch at this stage?

Question: What's wrong with just producing the best product you can as the NetERC, and putting it to the marketplace? Ie devote your attention to the quality and let the quantity of support take care of itself?

Not my place to state NetERC goals, but I'd like to see NetERC revisions to the core lists for those who want to use them (it will be a lot of people). Then get other lists up to scratch (balanced against your revised NetERC lists). This is quite a worthwhile task I think, and within your realm of control.

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alansa
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:36 pm 
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I have no doubt that the NetERC product will be better quality.

I know i'm repeating myself but for me ?this is not the deciding property.

If two products go head to head. GW EpicA and Net EpicA then I'll use the one the national open tournaments are using and the other only rarely.

I speak for myself only of course...

If you disregard the tournaments, then developing the Net EA is, of course, ?a perfectly worthwhile exercise.

Those who do care about both ?the work done here, *and* the tournaments (as I do) ?should either work with JJ (if possible) in which case the tournies will automatically follow, or lobby the tourny organisers themselves to work out some kind of arrangement. In other words, to ask them to host Net EA tournaments and not GW EA ones.

Again apologies for taking the thread OT...




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nealhunt
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:18 pm 
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Yes, the UK tournament scene is quite conservative.  However, several of the large events have included house rules of various kinds, at least in the announcements I've looked at.  The US/Canada is a lot more free-wheeling on the army list, and even including playtest lists isn't entirely uncommon.

There are 2 possibilities for NetEA, and personally, I see no problem with pursuing both.

1)  A set of minor mods to supplement the official lists - supplement, not supplant.  These could realistically be accepted at events, even relatively conservative ones.  If an event organizer wants to use them, great.  If not, no problem.

2)  More radical overhauls and substantial variants.  These are not likely to be used on conservative events but could be accepted in more open events.  An example of this is the several events I know of in the US that used the v1.8 Eldar rules.  These would almost certainly be used in parallel to the official lists, e.g. Codex SM and Black Templars allowed at the tourney.

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alansa
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:33 pm 
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However, several of the large events have included house rules of various kinds, at least in the announcements I've looked at.  


No house rules (except where FAQ and clarifications have been lacking) but some Experimental lists hosted on the SG site have been allowed.

These where 'Official' Experimental lists not 'House' lists (experimental or otherwise)

I suspect the first tornament to break the mold will be the 2day London one this summer, on its experimental sunday. Though Ginger is keen for stuff to become GW official so I suspect he won't go completely wild.

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rpr
 Post subject: NetEA Marine list planned changes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:01 pm 
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If (GW) Epic:A is going to be as static as announced, then on my opinionn "net" Epic is way to go, without taking too much limitations from the official version. Then tournament organisers can choose which one to use and most probably the same army list would not be 100% compatible between the "net" and official version. So sad, but as we live in net era, there is not that much difference in using either list based on bought book, or by list defined in some web site... so I hope that Finland will go in "net" direction (a bit like BB living rulebook)
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