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The Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
Allow it. 25%  25%  [ 12 ]
Don't allow it. 71%  71%  [ 34 ]
I don't feel I'm informed enough to vote on this topic. 4%  4%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 48

The Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
J0k3r
 Post subject: The Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:19 pm 
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I agree with E&C on this point- the whole skill of building a tourney army list is finding a balanced list that will play all opposing armies.  Building a dedicated armour smashing army will do great against some opponents but fall down against infantry hordes etc, and the great players are those that can field and fight a balanced list.

Ive re read the original thread and going according to what i understand from Neals first post then this swapping occurs during army selection, ie swapping transport types prior to a game is a nice idea, but not allowed by the RAW.




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Ginger
 Post subject: The Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:24 pm 
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Blarg (and others)

You have taken the notion of 'swapping' to an extreme to prove the point that it is absurd to allow this - as E&C says, you might as well re-write the list on the spot which would be ludicrous (not to mention the time wasted in a time critical event). - imagine two such list meeting each other, each changing to counter changes being made to the other!! :p


However, as Chroma and I pointed out, this whole situation arose because the Marine list specifes Formation +transport, and the question is essentially when does the Marine "transport" become defined?? As others have posted, this is just like Quantum theory - the E:A version of Schroedinger's cat (and I really like the similie :blues: ) where the transport becomes defined when you deploy the formation during start up.

So, in short the only case where Marines (or any other race) can possibly have these choices outside the army selection process is where the army list has these ambiguities in it - or if some "characteristic" is introduced specifically permitting it for a given race (essentlially what I was proposing as part of the review process).

Given the furore created by my suggesting the Marines might be able to choose between Rhinos and Drop pods for a few units, Hell is going to freeze over?before you will be permitted to swap units or weapons willy nilly. :p ?:p ?:D




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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: The Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:04 pm 
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First off, let me state that I don't care what the final outcome of this debate is.  I never have, and based upon some of what I am reading here, never will play in an Epic: Armageddon tournament.  So if my suggestions seem off-base, please excuse me for my ingnorance on the subject of how Epic: Armageddon tournaments are run.

I would never advocate that players be allowed to change their army selections willy-nilly.  I do think that you should be able to tailor your army list a little in relation to the race, not army, but race that you are going to face.  While I realize that there must be structure in how things are conducted regarding army composition, I think that the "set in stone" nature of army lists could result in some races being at a disadvantage, some being at an advantage, force selections that would not normally be used against certain races, and too much emphasis being placed on hyper-competitive army creation.  I wouldn't want to loose a game, or the tournament, because I went up against the wrong race.  Just doesn't sound fun to me...

Whatever.  You guys do whatever you want.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:09 pm 
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too much emphasis being placed on hyper-competitive army creation


In a tournament environment your proposals would result in exactly that; Everyone would take the most mutable armylist they could think of.

I don't go to tournaments either, but there is one thing that Epic has less of than other GW wargames, the 'meta game'. Allowing customisable unit choices (And Titans!) between games would end that difference very quickly.




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Moscovian
 Post subject: The Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:43 pm 
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I have never been to a GW tournament but the grass roots organized tourneys are fun because invariably you get to play against people who talk to out here on the forum, put a name with a face, etc. ?And even if you don't play in a tournament the blind aspect of the game makes it more challenging and more fun. (I have talked up how I am bringing the Necrons to show off my new models then throw down an Ork army just to see the expression on my buddy's face) :devil: . ?

IMO tournament lists should be blind to race as well as army composition. ?Take the Necron for example. ?If you knew you were facing them, you would have no need to field interceptors (Thunderbolts) or anti-aircraft units since they have no aircraft and their AA can be pretty devastating if they take more than one Pylon. ?The same goes for the Demiurg list (no aircraft but effective AA). ?If you knew you were fighting AMTL it would be easy to create a list of TK amed units and bring enough activations to out activate your opponent to death. ?If you knew you were playing against Tau or Eldar you wouldn't focus on bringing CC troops because of the high number of skimmers involved in the game. ?If you knew you were playing against Orks you would most likely take something with a lot of templates (how about Deathwinds and Orbital Bombardments?) to do some damage to the masses. ?

Tournament games are supposed to be blind to race and composition, folks. ?You can min-max almost any list in Epic but if you show up with an all drop army list it may work smashingly against one army and poor against another. ?It is the risk you take. ?But not
anymore with the Biggles maneuver (sorry I couldn't help it)! ?Now you can, for what appears to me to be a negligible cost, get the best of both worlds.

I don't know how somebody could play a list like that and not want to take a shower afterwards :p .




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Markconz
 Post subject: The Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:14 pm 
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(Moscovian @ Oct. 18 2007,19:43)
QUOTE
I don't know how somebody could play a list like that and not want to take a shower afterwards :p .

Well said Mosc.

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Ginger
 Post subject: The Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:33 pm 
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Ok, just for the record, I have been to many tournaments in my 30+ years of wargaming, and umpired a large historical UK tournament for at least 5 years if memory serves.

The Epic tournaments in the UK run by Matt Otter rank as probably the most enjoyable I can recollect, both in the way they are unobtrusively run, and in the exemplary spirit in which they are played. The way that the number of participants is growing is therefore hardly surprising. As Mosc says, it is great to put faces to the people on the forums, and equally to get past this somewhat irritating medium. You also get to meet other, less vocal folk, who if anything are even nicer and more thoughtfull, and who are only too willing to point out tactical mistakes you are making - in a "competitive" environment too. Sure you get competitive players - it is a competition after all - but sometimes the wooden spoon is more keenly fought over than the 1st prize (check out the Dragonslayer thread on the SG boards if you don't believe me :D )

Mosc, your general comments about "blind" tournaments are also spot on. Even when the army lists are talked about on the forums, you can never be sure just who is going to field what. As to the "Biggles" manoeuver, I am honoured to have it named after me, though the venues and tournament timetable rarely allow for showers between games, cold or otherwise. But, IMHO you exagerate the extent of the benefit of the manoeuver - we are only talking of 2-3 formations here, or less than 25% of a 3000 point army - more a hand-wash than a shower :p ?:D

Finally Blarg, I am sorry if my comments came across a little harsh. I can imagine "customisable" formations working well in a pseudo-campaign fought between several friends with different races, where you would build/rebuild units and formations to field for the upcoming battle with the next race. Sadly that just would not really work in a "blind" tournament environment, especially because of the time constraints.

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jb1
 Post subject: The Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:07 pm 
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Right,then.
I don't get to play epic, much. Nobody around here to play with. But I do look forward to playing epic someday with some of you here on the forum (even if I have to fly halfway around the world!), when that day comes then more than likely it will be a tournament.
I do like the idea of being "blind" as to the compositon of your opponents( Of course for the tournament).
In this fashion you must really think hard about a very well balanced team. And after one defeat/victory take notes on the strength /weakness that has occurred. This is something along the lines of the NFL. Work with the team you have.
Anyways I will be working on my Ultras, and looking forward to the day that we can fight  :cool: ...

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: The Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:28 pm 
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(jb1 @ Oct. 19 2007,16:07)
QUOTE
But I do look forward to playing epic someday with some of you here on the forum (even if I have to fly halfway around the world!)

I'm curious. Where do you live?

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jb1
 Post subject: The Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:05 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Oct. 19 2007,15:28)
QUOTE

(jb1 @ Oct. 19 2007,16:07)
QUOTE
But I do look forward to playing epic someday with some of you here on the forum (even if I have to fly halfway around the world!)

I'm curious. Where do you live?

Wisconsin...Ever heard of it?

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: The Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:25 pm 
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Of course. Fortunately you wouldn't have to fly halfway around the world to get to Connecticut.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: The Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:36 pm 
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(Ginger @ Oct. 18 2007,23:33)
QUOTE
Sure you get competitive players -

Must remember not to be so competitive, must remember not to be so competitive.

This is a fun game, this is a fun game.

:blush:

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: The Rhino/Drop Pod Swap
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:41 am 
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I voted to allow it but only because I think that the Marine army list should be changed to specifically allow this. I think it is a nice balance factor for Marines who can often be difficult to play and I think it fits in well with the Marine background.

It keeps Marine opponents on their toes.

The marine player should be required to declare how they are deploying before objectives are placed but other than that I think it would be a fun addition to the army.

As the list is currently written I don't think it is allowable but I think it should be.

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