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SM Transport Rule

 Post subject: SM Transport Rule
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:48 pm 
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(jb1 @ Oct. 04 2007,17:24)
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The only confusion I see is in this thread's contents of trying to fix a (problem??) that doesn't exist. The rule 6.3 and the following are really straight forward in 8th grade level of understanding that should be left alone. ? If you don't want the bloody vehicles just don't take them,if you want them you got them-simple,non of this 5pts here 10pts there crap. This addition and subtraction that is mentioned is what is confusing....and the reasons for it make just as much non sense.
If anything is confusing is the fact that some armored vehicles have no more armor than some of the troops!Thats some of the stuff that needs attention,not special rule 6.3.1 Space Marines transports. BTW I've worked on that by using D10s KISS

jb1, I find it humorous that you reference that the rule should be understandable by anyone at an 8th grade level but you find addition and subtraction of numbers in '5's to be confusing...  :p  

Ginger, you summed it up pretty well.  I'm not married to the idea of doing the SMs this way and obviously Neal isn't either (and it was his proposal, so everybody yell at him :devil: ).  However the point increases to the air transports would be welcome changes.  While this proposal is not without contention, the ideas that the Thunderhawk and Landing Craft are too inexpensive are accepted by a majority of players (at least it had been in the past).  This strange little point adjustment would fix a bunch of problems in one fell swoop.

Personally I find it odd that people wouldn't want to try it out. So far the only valid argument I've seen against changing this is that the rule is fine as it is.  E&C makes a good point: there are people asking about how to do this all the time on the SG forums.

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 Post subject: SM Transport Rule
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:45 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 04 2007,16:34)
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The only confusion I see is in this thread's contents of trying to fix a (problem??) that doesn't exist.

The problem does exist. We see people cropping up on the SG forums asking how the rule's supposed to work all the time.

I've seen it myself a coupe of times when introducing new players to Epic in real life too... I'll come back to them a few weeks after I've given them an intro game to find they're puzzling with their (also new) opponent how the rule is supposed to work, getting in arguments over how Razorbacks are incorporated, etc.


Plus, giving Rhinos point values and discounting formations makes the list as a whole more balanced. No other army has to pay to garrison.

...I beleive the people cropping up with not understanding "the" rule is more of a simple mathematics problem for "them". I see it all the time in "all" games-some peole can not add or subtract, and God help us if you had them multiply...The transport rule can be no more simple. I would really hate to see Ea turn into netepic because of a crop of people not being able to do simple math!
Let's reveiw. 1 Tactical unit at 300 points,replace 2 Rhinos with 2 Razorbacks at 25 points each-add 50 points=350. Maybe 2 dreadnaughts were added instead,50 points for each (I honestly wouldn't want this ?because the Dreads are too slow,but this example is just used to show simplicity in the "rule") this would make a tactical squad at 300 points now 400 with 2 dreads. If you wanted to keep the Rhinos fine but they are part of the squad,but they would have to move at the speed of the slowest part of the formation,obviously. So please, where is the problem?
Do some of you feel cheated because you don't want the rhinos and feel compelled to "get" points back for something you might choose not to use? If this is the case I would not care either way, but I would personally leave it alone and say the formations are the points they are with or without there homogenious transport.
The choice to use them or not is up the commanding player.

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 Post subject: SM Transport Rule
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:55 am 
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You miss the point then. I'm not confused by 5s, 10s,or other numbers,but the way that some of you are trying to explain it would make Einstien blow a snot! Some of you are trying to fix something that don't needa fix'n




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 Post subject: SM Transport Rule
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:55 am 
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(Hena @ Oct. 05 2007,00:50)
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(Moscovian @ Oct. 05 2007,00:48)
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Personally I find it odd that people wouldn't want to try it out. So far the only valid argument I've seen against changing this is that the rule is fine as it is. ?E&C makes a good point: there are people asking about how to do this all the time on the SG forums.

That would mean that it's written badly. There is difference in fixing text and changing the way mechanism works.

I was just at the "SG" forums last night looking specifically for this "item". I couldn't find anything about it. But I did find people asking for just about everything else. You know just because you have people ask about a rule or how it functions, doesn't neccessarily mean its disfunctional. I think some of you are just jumping the bolter...(gun)
Muscovian said"So far the only valid argument I've seen against changing this is that the rule is fine as it is..."
Jb1 speaks "You also don't mention that someone validated that it is brutaly simple! Among other valid arguments of sustaining it" on the same token I don't see a valid reason mentioned here for changing the SM transport rule 6.3 ...





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 Post subject: SM Transport Rule
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:46 am 
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No big deal if you are for keeping the existing rule, but while it may be simple it is open to interpretation and in some cases abuse.  And the functionality of the existing rule doesn't automatically disqualify the ability of this proposal to actually work.  Y'all are getting caught up in an argument where you believe if one rule works the other one doesn't.

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 Post subject: SM Transport Rule
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:57 pm 
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Couldn't the Space Marine army simply be like this..:
Rhino upgrade: add enough rhinos to transport all units without any other transport: +0 pts
Drop pods: add drop pods. The formation cannot have any armored vehicle upgrades: +0 pts

Naturally only available to those formations which can have rhinos or drop pods respectively.

Should take care of master FAQ entries and "when do I need to choose?" problem.


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 Post subject: SM Transport Rule
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:04 pm 
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Sounds pretty nice to me rpr.  

Problem is the 'but units that don't take transports are too expensive'
Reply to that is 'they get to garrison, and if you choose not to do that, or don't want to take transports that's your own fault'.

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 Post subject: SM Transport Rule
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:33 pm 
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@rpr: Theupgrades shpuld beinfact:

Rhinos: After any upgrades are taken, add the minimum number of Rhinos to transport any remaining units without a transporting vehicle. Cost: Free

Droppods: Add Droppods. The formation can't have any other armoured vehicle excluding Dreadnoughts. Cost: Free





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 Post subject: SM Transport Rule
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:40 pm 
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Sounds good.  But how does this interact with razorbacks?

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 Post subject: SM Transport Rule
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:43 pm 
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This thread has gone subtly off topic.

Neal Hunt proposed revisions to the Marine list to balance it for a ground-based list as well as the currently-balanced aircraft list.

We're now discussing clarifying currently-existing rules, and ignoring Neal's very worthy topic.


I for one would love to at least playtest this interesting idea, which impacts interestingly on the balance of Garrisoned Marine forces and Dreadnoughts.

'fixing' the marine transport rule is just a convinent side effect.





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 Post subject: SM Transport Rule
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:13 pm 
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Neals ideas are going too far for my taste. That?s not correcting the list, that?s a whole new list. And I?m sure marines do not need that. Sure they need some corrections in armor, but no new point costs for Infantry, Razors and the other good functioning components. Also pretty sure they need no LC for more than 375.

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 Post subject: SM Transport Rule
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:34 pm 
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For the record, I have the following changes for the Transport list and the upgrades:

[Transport, 1st paragraph]
The Space Marines are a highly mobile army. Because of this, the points cost of a detachment usually includes enough Rhino transport vehicles to transport it and any upgrades that have been taken. Determine the number of Rhinos needed after all upgrades have been purchased.  The number of Rhinos will always be the minimum needed to carry the formation, you can?t take extras along to cover any losses! Note that many formations don?t receive Rhinos, usually because they can?t fit into them. Detachments that come with Rhinos will be noted as having ?plus transport? in the units section of the army list opposite.

[Add text:]
Choosing transport options is part of the army selection process.  While portions of a formation may be left behind during deployment (to garrison, for example) the decision to exchange options, even ?free? ones, must be determined when the army list is determined.


Razorbacks
Add any number of Razorbacks, up to the number required to transport the formation.
25 each

Note that the change would allow a formation like Devastators to buy Razorback transport regardless of whether LRs had been purchased or not.  That's a complication most people won't spot right away but I think it's okay for the purposes of clarity.

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